Arcane Gish Options

[ubergish]

Hi all, I'm new here and haven't played NWN2 for around 3 years so I'm a little rusty. I love playing arcane gishes, so I'm trying to figure out a build that will work on this module. Since there is a large time investment, I don't want to end up with a dud.

Here is what I have gathered so far:
[*] There are 3 'Gish' Prcs: Eldrich Knight, Bladsinger, Dragonslayer
[*] Bladesinger requires 30 int and elf, so basically you have to be a sun elf.
[*] Bladesinger requires combat insight since it will have to put all of it's points into int.
[*] Dragonslayer needs still spell to wear any armor, so expect to get still spell, and the three auto-still as your epic feats.
[*] You need around +30 damage at epic levels due to high damage resistance. Hit isn't 'as' important since ac tends to be a bit lower.
[*] You need at LEAST 28 CL, 30 is best because of dispells
[*] Swashbuckler gets insightful strike at 5 instead of 3, making it incompatible with bladesinger and dragonslayer

A few things I am not sure of
[*] Will a 30 buffed int bladesinger be able to land any DC spells?
[*] Can a 16 int with a +3 int item cast level 9 spells?
[*] Are there any 0 spell failure armors like in the OC?
[*] What is better, higher AC from Bladesinger or resistances from Dragonslayer

Here are the two builds I came up with I am trying to decide between:
[*] Bladesinger - http://nwn2db.com/build/?273517
[*] Dragonslayer - http://nwn2db.com/build/?273522
[*] Swash-wizard = http://nwn2db.com/build/?273569

Bladesinger and Dragonslayer have some PRC wiggle room, swash has to take archmage or will have a CL of 27 which would be too low. Dragonslayer seems like the easiest to level and teh best pure melee. The other two might be better if they have a high enough spell DC to land their spells.

Are there any other options I'm missing? Would these characters be able to hold their own in PVE?

[Deathgrowl]

[*] Bladesinger requires 30 int and elf, so basically you have to be a sun elf.

What? No. It certainly benefits from 30 int, but it's far from necessary.

[*] Bladesinger requires combat insight since it will have to put all of it's points into int.

Or you can build a bladesinger based on strength. It's perfectly viable.

[*] You need around +30 damage at epic levels due to high damage resistance. Hit isn't 'as' important since ac tends to be a bit lower.

Only if you must be able to kill everything. A lot of epic level things have no DR whatsoever, and a lot of them have material specific DR (such as 10/silver).

[*] Will a 30 buffed int bladesinger be able to land any DC spells?

Not reliably. As a gish, you should focus your spell book on melee abilities, anyways, and as a bladesinger, get a few direct damage spells (such as orbs).

[*] Can a 16 int with a +3 int item cast level 9 spells?

Yes.

[*] Are there any 0 spell failure armors like in the OC?

I know there's at least a padded armour that can be bought. It's possible the loot generator can drop some extremely rare chain shirts with 0% asf, but I don't know for certain

[*] What is better, higher AC from Bladesinger or resistances from Dragonslayer

Whichever you prefer. As a gish, defense is hardly a big issue. Along with your relatively high AC (and with dragonslayer, you can even put on a tower shield), you have 30/adamantine DR from premonition, you have mirror images and you have displacement. Defense isn't going to be an issue.

[ubergish]

I suppose the +half int bonus to AC isn't required, but it seems like one of the main benefits of the class. You could go full strength and have a buffed int of +20 and get +2 AC to compensate for the missing shield in the offhand and take this class instead of Dragonslayer to get light armor instead of using still spell.

[chad878262]

At one point valefort did a comparison of a STR bladesinger vs a INT/DEX bladesinger and they were relatively equal.

[metaquad4]

You could also do a DEX/INT split. Get yourself 18-20 INT and put the rest into DEX. I ended up with 24 DEX and 20 INT in this manner.

Go Wizard 5/Swashbuckler 5/Eldrich Knight 10/Bladesinger 10. You'll end up with a 24 CL, which isn't too horrible. You may need to prepare another set of buffs (just in case), but you should have enough spell slots for that. If you have swashbuckler 5, each point on INT (towards enemies who can be critical hit) will deal 2 damage instead of 1 (I believe you get some extra damage for 2-handing a single rapier too) so the damage should be fairly good.

[Sun Wukong]

(I believe you get some extra damage for 2-handing a single rapier too)

Only if you are a halfling or a gnome, so not as an elf.

As for the builds given, I'd prefer the Dragonslayer Gish, although you can take the Automatic Still Spell feats at levels 21, 23, and 25, because their requirements were lowered on this server.

As for building a Gish, there are prestige classes such as Blood Magus and Archmage that do increase your caster level. Therefore a Wizard 8/Swashbuckler 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 6 could actually have caster level of 30, and BAB of 23, and quite high Intelligence for spell DCs and relatively good damage with light weapons such as Rapier. (Int mod of +10, +20 damage per hit.) The downside is your limited armor proficiency, but concealment with mirror images does go a long way too.

So it is a possibility you could consider.

[Sapper Woody]

I play a Gish. I was looking into a Gish build, and then built one, and then found out that evidently it's considered a power build.

It's a simple build. Wiz10/EK10/DS10. I use still spell, and I have 16 INT with a +3 INT item for casting. I started with 16 STR, and put all my level up ability points into STR. What I've found is that if you really want to, you can get by without auto still spell. But I enjoy it.

At level 30, I'll have a buffed 44AB, and then 49 with Tenser's. I'll also have a 29 CL. So, not dispel proof, but close.

The AC that I achieve does not sound too great on its own. Self buffed, I get a 44AC. But, then there's mirrors, premonition, shades, energy immunities, ghostly visage, deez's repulsive, stoneskin, protection from spells. Basically, things don't hit you very often.

I love the build. The damage isn't going to be as spectacular as a DPS oriented glass cannon. But for a balance of offense/defense, my opinion is that this build is one of the best options.

Another option is Wiz13/EK10/DS7. You lose a couple of AB, but get CL30.

[chad878262]

meh, I wouldn't worry over much about others calling your character a "power build". RP is great, but mechanics are equally important to the game, if you enjoy them. Both dragon slayer and bladesinger gish builds can be equally powerful with similar strengths and weaknesses depending on how you build. Treating a gish with under 30 caster levels as a fighter can make for a powerful build. i.e. a F8/W12/EK10 is perfectly viable with CL25 so long as you don't mind wearing +4 armor, shield, and dodge/ deflection/ natural armor items.

Same applies to dragon slayer and bladesinger builds... if you buy epic equipment getting dispelled isn't generally going to cause you ending up in the fugue.

[V'rass]

Cleric/Mage gish works very well... only weakness are dispells and there are ways to mitigate those, (I.E. Counterspell)

[chad878262]

C7/W17/AM6 with STR domain would be quite strong, indeed. CL30 (PSC and SP1-3) Wizard and Extended Divine Power/Divine Power in all the level 3 and 4 slots.... However, I imagine Vrass was likely talking about a somewhat more even distribution of levels between priest and wizard. I would likely go C9/W15/AM6 for CL28 and extended divine power filling up level 4 and 5 slots.

Edit, of course, SORC would be even stronger since you could take ~13 WIS and then get 21 STR/CHA for EDM... However, I remembered reading that Sorc was weak...

For more min/max fun you could go FvS7/S14/AM6/BG3 for some crazy synergies and CL27 with EDM, CHA to saves and more casts of Divine Power (though not extended so likely a net loss.) and no Divine Shield. Edit 2: this one doesn't work because you need FvS 8 to get level 4 spells.
Lots of ways to mix divine and arcane and still have decent Caster Level.

[Deathgrowl]

AM6

Subject: Custom and New Classes

High Arcana: Spellpower 3 (requires 8 level of Archmage)
Specifics: At the cost of one 9th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic

[chad878262]

Why you always got to call out my multitude errors DG?

Obviously you could go W15/AM8/C7 (for example), in any case to reach CL30. Point was that you can make a CL30 or near CL30 arcane+divine gish if you want to.

Seriously thanks for correcting DG, wouldn't want to lead anyone down the wrong expectations.

[Nachti]

What AC has a unbuffed gish usually?

[aaron22]

cleric/mage is awful. can not see a reason to mix those two classes into anything that would be at considered playable. only a 26/4 split would be advisable and there are WAY better options than this. every other option is better than this. DONT DO IT

[V'rass]

What AC has a unbuffed gish usually?

Mine has a max of 43 ac unbuffed with imp expertise... fully buffed i usually hit 51-53.

cleric/mage is awful.

Not true at all and mine is not only playable but extremely versatile as well.