Need a more thorough explanation on shield bash.

[Bunnysmack]

I was playing around with making a Cleric/Fighter/Stormlord/Hierophant that uses a light shield with monkey grip and a spear. To get a little extra strength damage applied, I was thinking he would shield bash with the light shield. I noticed that the shield didn't seem to be receiving my full AB though...I had 16 strength and 1 BAB and yet the shield only swung for an AB of 3.

Starting to wonder if shield bash is worth incorporating into the build; If it ONLY ever gets strength modifier for both to-hit and damage rolls, then it won't be worth it. What sorts of damage bonuses can proc on shield bash and what determines your to-hit dice? Would bonus damage from Extended Storm Avatar add damage to the shield attacks? What about various cleric spells that add X damage to your attacks?

[Theodore01]

Starting to wonder if shield bash is worth incorporating into the build

Short answer, no.

Shield bash is only useful with high STR characters. And even with them - it isn't usually worth 2 feats (TWF and shield bash) just for the mediocre damage.
Only Shield feats and STR Bonus increase Damage. Spells and bardic inspirations do nothing regarding shield bash.

[Bunnysmack]

Thanks for the answer! I will adjust the character accordingly, good thing this was only a test build.

[dedude]

First things first, the AB issue you saw was a mistake I made in the attack message shown to the player. The actual attack does use your correct AB. Sorry for that, it has been fixed and should work next update.

Secondly I just realized that I forgot to update the wiki after I re-worked this feat. I will get to that as soon as I have time, but I will outline it here now since you asked about it.

Number of shield attacks
With Greater Two-weapon Fighting: 3
With Improved Two-weapon Fighting: 2
With Two-weapon Fighting + Agile Shield Fighter: 2
Otherwise: 1

Things that influence AB
+BAB
+Strength Bonus
+/-Your size
+Epic Prowess
+Shield Focus line of feats
+Shield EB (from next update)
-Shield Sizes larger than small, unless you have Agile Shield Fighter or Two-weapon fighting

Things that influence damage
Shield size
Strength Bonus
Special bonus damage property on shield (don't think any shields have this)
Charging with the Powerful Charger feat
Power Attack
Improved Power Attack
Sneak Attack (if in a position to make sneak attacks)
Shield EB (from next update)
Crit rolls double the damage

I will let you determine if this feat is right for your character. I personally think it is decent, and if you focus on shield fighting feats it can be really good.

[Theodore01]

@dedude: Very nice - thxs for making shield bash better.

So GMW works on shield then ?
Or do we get shields with EB from a shop ?

Granting extra attacks for TWF feats, is really a punch in the groin to any STR fighter, who was waiting to get his extra attacks like the feat promised for years

The shield bash line already is very feat intensive, who beyond a ranger can afford 3 extra feats and a dex score of 19 ?

[sir_blacksoutalot]

You gain an additional shield bash at BAB 11, and another one at BAB 21.

Thats the current Shield Bash description on the wiki, and what we players have been building around.

I have to agree with Theo about this change to TWF feats in order to get additional attacks. While it's likely this change is not intended to penalize fighter types who have high BAB, the end result is that it does.

Dedude, is it possible you meant to describe that extra attacks can be granted by either high BAB or by acquiring the TWF line of feats? If not, how about considering that approach? With such high STR and DEX investment required, I have a hard time seeing how it will be exploited. And you could still limit the max number of shield bashes to three.

Thoughts?

[dedude]

So GMW works on shield then ?
Or do we get shields with EB from a shop ?

No, I mean enhancement bonus to AC for shields.

Granting extra attacks for TWF feats, is really a punch in the groin to any STR fighter, who was waiting to get his extra attacks like the feat promised for years

The shield bash line already is very feat intensive, who beyond a ranger can afford 3 extra feats and a dex score of 19 ?

You don't have to go for the 3 attacks. With 15 Dex you can get 2 attacks with your shield. Don't forget you get these attacks without losing the AC benefits of the shield. For a STR based fighter that is easily 40-50 extra damage per round, while maintaining your high AC. That sounds pretty good to me.

[dedude]

You gain an additional shield bash at BAB 11, and another one at BAB 21.

Thats the current Shield Bash description on the wiki, and what we players have been building around.

I have to agree with Theo about this change to TWF feats in order to get additional attacks. While it's likely this change is not intended to penalize fighter types who have high BAB, the end result is that it does.

Dedude, is it possible you meant to describe that extra attacks can be granted by either high BAB or by acquiring the TWF line of feats? If not, how about considering that approach? With such high STR and DEX investment required, I have a hard time seeing how it will be exploited. And you could still limit the max number of shield bashes to three.

Thoughts?

I'm not against making further changes to the feat if that is needed, but the description on the wiki is just wrong and was not at all how it was implemented before. The previous implementation even had a huge bug allowing damage rolls in the hundreds. I will poke QC to see how they feel about the current version.

[Theodore01]

With 15 Dex you can get 2 attacks with your shield.
Number of shield attacks: With Two-weapon Fighting + Agile Shield Fighter: 2

It's still 3 feats needed for a second attack, plus dex 15. (Agile requires Shield Spez.)

[Sun Wukong]

Does shield slam at least let you do sneak attacks still?

[Theodore01]

Sure, that's the sole purpose of shield slam.

[dedude]

That and control.

I had a chat with QC, and we agreed on some changes for Shield Bash. I have updated the Shield Bash wiki.

Basically you now have a choice of high DEX - low feats, or low DEX - high feats, or something in between.

[sir_blacksoutalot]

Dedude, thanks for following up on this issue. I hate it when things are left unresolved, and you've done a great job at communication here.

My initial perspective on Shield Bash was that the feat was introduced to help "mostly" pure fighter types who tend to struggle in epic levels (or at least to expand combat options for added fun). So I'm struggling to understand how things diverged into giving an emphasis to high Dex'ers (like rangers just totally scored off this change). But okay, I trust you guys to know how best to balance things out. I can't even imagine what a constant challenge that must be—especially knowing you have to deal with us players after any change is introduced.

Moving forward, it would be really, really nice if you can add shields in game that grant the Shield Focus feat. Players already need to take Shield Specialization to get Agile Shield Fighter. Shield Focus is that one feat temptation that might or might not fit into a shield fighter's build. Just my two cents.

[dedude]

Keeping the TWF feats in there was a request from QC, and I don't see a problem with it to be honest. High DEX'ers spend a lot of ability points on their high DEX, so that probably limits their STR which is pretty important for this feat.

It is true, a dual wield Ranger can get the benefits of Shield Bash pretty cheap, but the shield doesn't benefit from their favored enemy feats, and when the ranger get PTWF his off-hand weapon will out-damage his shield by quite a lot.

Those that get the most from this feat are STR based melee fighters. I absolutely believe that the feats are worth it if you want to use a shield. Shield Focus grants +1 AC to a shield fighter for a non-epic feat, that is a pretty good feat even without Shield Bash.

[Theodore01]

Rangers get a nice cheap damage upgrade when they need to use a shield.
Bards/Dreadpirates also get a cheap damage buff.

Do these classes really need it ?