Deathgrowl wrote:
Mallore wrote:I do not see how another hips class would break the game or hurt. I think it be nice to have a more thieving flavor 10 level prc. I am kinda tired of feeling boxed into one of two build styles on this iconic class. We have a bunch of ways to be wizards and casters, a number of ways to be divine priests, or holy, unlimited ways to be all sorts of stuff. It feels rather limiting however to be a Theif =)
Another hips class in and of itself won't really hurt as long as hips comes late in the class, in order to not get another hips-dip class. But again, if Assassin has its name changed to something move vaguely rogue-like, I don't really see the need for another PRC. I don't mind one, but I have no idea what it can even bring to the table that shadowdancer and assassin doesn't already.
Even a name change, the class is still a murder class. ((by the way when character building it still says Evil Only even though you can select it though)) I am looking for a more theiving class, or really just another way to build. As the choices are only those two and pretty set pattern. I feel role play is pretty restricted, as your either a murder (assissan no matter how you name it) the class is murder skills. Or an SD. and SD lacks synergy and has poor to no lore or flavor to it here on our server or in fr. yes mask has SD levels but not in 2e, only in 3rd did that happen.
Mallore wrote:In the end, would more content hurt? I do not think so. There is no crazy teir 1 build going to come out of this, no crazy omg it will rule the server if we gave rogues hips. I do respect the idea you believe that HiPS is Super Natural ability and maybe thats a reason for rogues not to get this ability, but however if we are going to use that reason then we should consider PrC and ability options of faerun rogues that we do not have. Thus increasing the fun =)
There could definitely be crazy tier1 builds coming out of it if we gave rogue10 or rogue13 the ability to pick HiPS. More content doesn't hurt though, you're right.
But I literally cannot think of anything that is missing from assassin or shadowdancer that would be more "roguey" as you say. Do you have any particular PRCs in mind? Or something homebrewed? What sort of abilities are you looking for in a rogue style PRC with hips?
I do, Neither of those classes strike me as Cat Burglar or a Master Spy.
Take this for example. It is not about stab in the face like assissan, and is actual real Faerun lore unlike Shadow Dancer. It also synergies with the rogue and other rogue like classes. its a prc about getting in an our of places.. not the best example for here.. but one that could work to host a number of other issues to follow.
but this is an example of actual faerun lore and sneaks that is not core book stuff.
Faerûnian Prestige Class : Telflammar Shadowlord
The Shadowmasters of Telflamm are one of Faerûn's most notorious thieves' guilds, a secret society every bit as grasping and ruthless as the Night Masks of Westgate or the Shadow Thieves of Amn. Under their subtle and cloaked rule, Thesk's port city of Telflamm is a prime center of trade in both legal and illicit goods.
The Shadowmasters are made up of burglars, murderers, and thugs with a variety of talents, including assassins, experts, fighters, rogues, shadowdancers, and warriors. A small number of clerics devoted to Mask belong to the guild, as do some arcane spellcasters whose greed outweighs their scruples. Above all these criminals stand the Telflammar shadowlords, the secret captains of iniquity who demand unquestioned obedience from their numerous minions. Characters of other classes may hold important positions in the guild, but the shadowlords call the shots.
Requirements
To qualify to become a Telflammar Shadowlord, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Race: The character must possess the shadow-walker template, which is conferred by a special rite consecrated to Mask (see Chapter 6: Monsters of the East - Unapproachable East). Members in good standing of the Shadowmasters guild can arrange for the rite of transformation by gifting 2,000 gp to Mask's temple in Telflamm; others must give at least 10,000 gp and perform a service of some kind for the clerics of Mask. A character who is not a shadow-walker can still qualify for the Telflammar shadowlord prestige class, but he must meet the spellcasting requirement.
Alignment: Any non-good
Skills: Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks
Feats: Blind-fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack,
Spellcasting: If the character is not a shadow-walker, he must either possess the ability to shadow jump (as the shadowdancer prestige class ability) or be able to cast dimension door as a spell or spell-like ability.
Special: Sneak attack damage +2d6.
Special: The character must qualify to select regional feats from Thesk (the region is his home region, or he has 2 ranks in Knowledge [local - Thesk]).
Class Skills
The Telflammar shadowlord's class skills are Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All the following are Class Features of the Telflammar shadowlord prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Telflammar shadowlords gain no proficiency in any weapon or armor.
Spells Per Day/Spells Known: At each Telflammar shadowlord level, the character gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells. He gains arcane spells per day according to the table below and must choose his spells from the Telflammar shadowlord spell list, below. The shadowlord's caster level is equal to his Telflammar shadowlord level. To cast a spell, the shadowlord must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Telflammar shadowlord bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the shadowlord's Intelligence modifier. When the shadowlord gets 0 spells of a given level, such as 0 1st-level spells, at 1st level, the shadowlord gets only bonus spells. The shadowlord prepares and casts spells just as a wizard does.
Shadowsight (Ex): Gifted with a mystical connection to shadow and darkness, the shadowlord gains a superior form of darkvision with a 60-foot range. He can see through any form of normal or magical darkness without hindrance.
Shadow Jump (Su): A Telflammar shadowlord can travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow or darkness. The shadowlord can jump up to a total of 20 feet per class level per day in this way. This amount can be split up among many jumps, but each jump, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. If the Telflammar shadowlord already has shadow jump from another class (because he did not meet the spellcasting prerequisite, for example), this ability confers no additional benefit.
Shadow Blur (Su): At 2nd level, a Telflammar shadowlord gains an unusual defense - anytime he is not in daylight or the illuminated radius of a light source, the shadows cloak his every movement, conferring the benefits of a blur spell. The shadowlord can choose to activate or end this effect as a free-action.
Shadow Walk (Sp): Once per day starting at 3rd level, a Telflammar shadowlord may use shadow walk as a caster whose level is equal to his shadowlord class level. If he previously possessed the ability to use shadow walk as a spell-like ability, he gains a second daily use of that power.
Shadow Pounce (Ex): At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation. The shadowlord must have line of sight on his intended target from his original location, and the spot to which he teleports must be a place from which he can launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action.
Shadow Discorporation (Su): At 5th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to use his mastery of shadows to cheat death. If the shadowlord is in shadow or darkness (anything but direct daylight or the illuminated radius of a light source), any damage that would reduce him to 0 hit points or below instead has a chance to discorporate him. The shadowlord attempts a Reflex save (DC 5 + damage dealt); if successful, he simply break apart into dozens of flitting shadows and vanishes, along with anything be is holding or carrying. At the next sunset, the shadowlord reappears at a spot of his choosing within one mile of the place where he was forced to discorporate. While discorporated, the shadowlord simply does not exist he can do nothing, nor can any of his enemies do anything to him.
Death Attack (Ex): At 6th level, a Telflammar shadowlord gains the ability to make a death attack as the assassin ability. If the shadowlord has levels in the assassin prestige class, he may add his assassin and Telflammnar shadowlord class levels together to calculate the save DC of his death attack.
Telflammar Shadowlord Hit Die: d6
CL BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Shadowsight, shadow jump 0 - -
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Shadow blur 1 - -
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Shadow walk 1 0 -
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Shadow pounce 2 1 -
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Shadow discorporation 2 1 0
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Death attack 2 2 1
Spell List
Telflammar shadowlords choose their spells from the following list.
1st level - blindness deafness, chill touch, darkness, darkvision, invisibility, knock, levitate, shadow mask, shadow spray.
2nd level - air walk, blacklight, displacement, haste, improved invisibility, nondetection, vampiric touch.
3rd level - confusion, darkbolt, detect scrying, dimension door, mass invisibility, mislead.
Page 15 of Song and Silence (which has a lot of Rogue PRCs and archytpes)
1st Cover identity, required ranks, sneak attack +1d6
2ndRequired ranks, undetectable alignment
3rdQuick change, required ranks, Uncanny dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
4th+1Cover identity, required ranks, sneak attack +2d6
5th+1Required ranks, slippery mind, spot scrying
6t required ranks, uncanny dodge
7th+2Cover identity, required ranks, Sneak attack +3d6
8thDeep cover, hear subharmonics, required ranks
9thDetection damper, reactive body language, required ranks
10thMind blank,
This prc is all about being a spy and disguises. Its full bab to with decent saves so you can pull off a james bond. Look at some of the fun teck it has. Spot Scrying, mindblank and undetectable alignment. this stuff is amazing for role play and is not covered by SD or Assisssan, further it is pretty fun rp concept because you go into such deep cover you are another person.
Im a pretty big fan of this prc. I think the rp is just fabulous for our server. anyways..
there are other things Like Shadow-Walkers. this is when a ritual to mask replaces some of your life force with shadow essense..
Mechanically it be nice to open chests with out breaking stealth.. because a master theif should be able to.. they are a master theif. Stage Magicians can do it, so why not a person of extraordinary skill in a world of magic?
Mechanically it be nice to have rogue tools and rogue items be it black oil for blades and padded shoe upgrades to bandoleers to lighten weight.
really the list of things goes on and I really like to see it enhanced and brought forward.
I do believe a third route to hips would great just for more fun, and I do agree I dont want to see it be a dip class. Heck seeing a requirement on SD if you take it having to go X levels would be great to end all this dipping stuff. But really, another prc with hips wont break the game, and opening it to rogues as a bonus feat may make a teir 1 build? We are not sure at all on that and im pretty sure it wont happen.. so we can make it at 13 and there is no way it will top the best builds in the game =)
there are so many options we can do. be it adding it to rogue, or making a new prc with it. or heck how about a new prc just in general for fun. I hope to see wider build options for Rogues that do not cause a loss of rogue flavor as Chad pointed out. I hope to see more Theif abilities and PRC and not "assassin"
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