Stealth question

[Rudolph]

Is there any point in making a non-DEX stealth build? Advice from Stealth players tends to recommend maximising Stealth at all, or almost all, cost. Does that mean there are extreme detection specialists in most mobs? With Clairaudience and Amplify no longer stacking and needing to be cast in the first place, it seems unlikely that there are many PCs that can reliably spot a 50+ stealther. I assume the NPCs are different? Anyway, back to my first question: do you think there are enough areas and bosses for a low Stealth Assassin, say, to flourish? And how high would the minimum of H&MS skills need to be in your view?

[chad878262]

In PvE you will usually be undetectable so long as your stealth is at least ~65 by level 30. There is a script that will rarely spawn a mob with much higher spot score so now and then you will be spotted. In CvC it really depends on who you might be apt to attempt to sneak against. There are absolutely players out there that build to get spot and/or listen up to the high 60's so that they can always detect most sneaks (since most can get to the mid-high 80's). These players will spot you, but they have invested to be able to do so and they could detect most sneaks, albeit taking longer to do so with those who have higher stealth.

So can a low Stealth assassin flourish? Sure, honestly you don't need any stealth for HiPS to allow you to land sneak attacks due to engine limitation. So long as you are immediately attacking upon entering HiPS you generally will attack before the detection script fires. However, if you are looking to stay in stealth for long periods I would shoot for 65 minimum (which can be done with just max hide/ms and gear with no reliance on DEX or feats). Honestly there are many characters that have no detection whatsoever and there are others that max spot, but don't have/use spot gear and have low WIS. Frankly in the 'arms race' of detection vs. stealth if a players builds specifically for top tier detection (such as a Druid, Ranger or Bard) all, but the most optimized sneaks are going to be spotted. Even the very best sneaks will be detected by some, such as Flasmix.

[Steve]

a low Stealth Assassin,

One way to do this is playing a Warlock/Assassin. With Warlock's Invocation of Walk Unseen, you can also use Assassins Death Attack from Invisibility. As long as you Max Concentration, you most likely will always be able to enter Invisibility, even when engaged in Melee—you just have to immediately back up from the combat area, so your PC doesn't auto attack just after going Invisible.

The thing with Death Attack is that the mob has to fully return to state of non-Hostile. Depending on a number of quirky factors related to the NWN2 Engine, this isn't often immediate once you have Stealthed or gone Invisible. Even if it looks like the mob is no longer Hostile, the actual Death Attack may not apply.

[Rudolph]

Thanks, both.

These are great tips!

The quirky build I had in mind only reaches 54 with items, alas - unless I let AC drop below 45 (which would be too low, wouldn't it?). Maybe I should still try it.

I contemplated the Warlock Invis before, but thought there would be many opponents with True Seeing etc., so that this kind of stealth was only very situational. Maybe I was wrong!?

[chad878262]

Below 45 may or may not be too low depending on a number of factors such as Hit Points, UMD useage, spells, and how much damage you do. I have had a HiPSer with 40 AC solo the Frost Giants before in melee. Had to use about 10 healing kits for a looting of the fortress, but never died during it. You just can't try to take on scores of mobs...try to isolate and pick them off one or two at a time. It takes a couple seconds for them to target you when you attack out of HiPS which gives you some extra time.

If you max hide/MS you are at 33, let's assume 14 DEX (18 w/ bracers) and Mithral Chain which gives +4 (DEX) - 2 (Armor check penalty) so you're at 35. Assuming +3 in every slot (some can get up to +4) head, neck, gloves, boots, belt, and 2 rings is +35 putting you at 70. So as I see it you could probably afford to allocate a couple of those slots to non-sneak gear and still be relatively ok. Of course this is going to be a VERY expensive trip to Avernus shop...

[Rudolph]

Thanks again!

I tweaked and tweaked and finally managed to get to the high 60s while maintaining 46 AC and almost 300 hp buffed (238 dispelled). And all that with available gear - albeit damn pricey.

The build is now extremely vulnerable to dispels, but otherwise ticking all the boxes. If you're not bored yet, a couple of minor questions:
1) You mentioned two rings for stealth, chad - do skill bonuses on rings actually stack? I thought they didn't.
2) Are there Heavy Shields with H&MS in the game?

[chad878262]

1) You mentioned two rings for stealth, chad - do skill bonuses on rings actually stack? I thought they didn't.

skill bonuses from items and spells stack up to a cap of +50.

2) Are there Heavy Shields with H&MS in the game?

Not that I am aware of, but anything is possible with the RIG.

[Nemni]

1) You mentioned two rings for stealth, chad - do skill bonuses on rings actually stack? I thought they didn't.

skill bonuses from items and spells stack up to a cap of +50.

But not from the same source right? I know that 2 rings that both give fortitude saves don't stack, for example. But belt and ring with fortitude would stack.

[mrm3ntalist]

But not from the same source right? I know that 2 rings that both give fortitude saves don't stack, for example. But belt and ring with fortitude would stack.

The skills stack. The Saves do not stack