Freedom to be Feisty on the Forums

[Steve]

I'd like to ask the Admin and the Head DMs and the Moderators to PLEASE be more open to allowing the Community to speak freely, and at times feisty, because really, as you can read, many care about what is being said, and that said, care about saying something with (strong) opinion.

Having to "watch your tongue" is practically synonymous with "having to watch your PvP," as has been expressed in recent discussions—and it's not working well.

It seems that strong disagreement and ideological challenges in discussions of these Threads are not desired. Fair enough. But if that is the case, then I ask the Admins, Head DMs and Moderators to change the nature of these Forums—"... the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people"—to be strictly a source of game-play information, and NOT be a forum where the playerbase can come to understand/challenge/request the Way of BGTSCC.

Just then steer the playerbase to IRC, where moderation has a different...subjectivity.

Thank you.

[Hawke]

Moved to a more appropriate location for discussion.

[Nemni]

Feisty can be good, but I remember a year ago or more when insults were rather common here. I don't miss them.

Having said that I don't approve of these thread locks. If a person or a few persons are breaking the rules then they should be dealt with, perhaps even temporarily banned if they don't listen to warnings. But unless a thread has really deteriorated it shouldn't be locked, since it stops also the non-rule breakers. We don't want to have a system where someone can just go into any discussion they don't like, say something inflammatory, and shut it down.

[Steve]

Thanks for the relocation, Hawke—it is a Forums issue/suggestion.

@ Nemni: Just to be clear, I am definitely NOT asking for letting insults fly (again). Challenging ideas or expressions should be seen and understood as fair, and far, from challenging-to-insulting the person that states them. You make good point. Thanks.

[Tsidkenu]

Prevention is better than cure, in my opinion.

I'd rather lock a thread on the verge of deterioration than leave it overnight and have 200 reports to action the next day.

Our job as volunteer moderators is to maintain the civility of these forums and to save the DMs' time doing so, that they may spend more time in game creating events and driving plots. We do not, and will not, tolerate bullying, trolling, flaming or abuse in any shape or form (not to mention real-world political/religious subjects that inflame the same). Of course it is up to our judgement, as volunteer moderators, to decide what is what, but if some members of this forum cannot make their points without denigrating their arguments to ad-hominem, do not expect us to tolerate it.

Some people believe they can say whatever they want simply because they exist on the other side of a screen. And you can. On Reddit, not BGTSCC.

[Steve]

We do not, and will not, tolerate bullying, trolling, flaming or abuse in any shape or form

I won't argue this ad-hominem, so I'll state my opinion once: this can be accomplished by dealing with individuals.

Maybe the Mods need a "24 hour Forum ban button," for dealing with those that have crossed the line of the understanding of the Forum Rules. Click and log off to sleep, knowing that it will stop the flamer in the immediate moment—and while you cannot stay online to moderate—but will not incense the flamer, nor worse, the rest of the Community, because their discussion gets shut down.

Thank you.

[aaron22]

seems like we are back to treating adults like children and wondering why they act like children. the thread is locked. we dont have to like it. if it comes back then we can talk again. if not... **shrugs**

it will come back up again. give it a week

[chad878262]

"Your rights stop where another's begin."

The 'right' to have a differing opinion and not be subject to personal attacks is quite real, and I believe there are those that separate personal attacks from arguments against a specific idea or thought. However, there are many who can't. It would be great to handle individuals on a case by case basis, but would require more effort on the part of moderators and admins. There are only so many hours in the day so unfortunately in many cases the most efficient manner of dealing with such things forum issues is going to be utilized. It may not be the 'right' or 'best' approach, but if there is a flame war between half a dozen posters that then individually get banned for a day multiple times over the course of a week it would become frustrating to monitor and address each time. Locking a thread takes one click...

[Nemni]

I didn't see any flame war in the pvp thread. If the reason for locking is that no one has time or desire to deal with the issue in more detail, such as stopping individuals rather than whole threads, then I guess I can understand that. I respect the fact that this is volunteer time. But a great forum environment it does not make. Maybe the solution is better tools for the moderators.

[Steve]

It would be great to handle individuals on a case by case basis, but would require more effort on the part of moderators and admins.

Locking a thread takes one click...

Chad, I'd like to propose that while I'm asking for a individual-ban approach, it would not exclude stopping a Thread when it DOES become a group flame war.

But if the PvP thread that go locked down is an example, there was nothing that warranted a complete shutdown (though I'd like to think Tsidkenu has oracle-like abilities to foresee the definite Storm of Flame coming in the quick future...that is just not how it works!).

It is weird, though, that we have Moderators who volunteer to be on the job, yet you're saying that they shan't have too much "work" to do. That is a pretty awful Catch-22, of which the Community suffers. Agree or no?

[chad878262]

Well, there was a comment made against a players preference that seemed to be leaning towards "your way isn't RP because..." which can be seen as a personal attack. I won't speak for Tsidkenu, but were I a mod that would be a viable reason to lock a thread that had already been locked and reopened once with a warning.

That is not to say your proposal for individual forum short-term bans doesn't have merit, but there is a difference between the work required to lock a thread and the work required to levy forum bans, then defend those bans, deal with complaints from those bans, handle accusations of favoritism if one person got banned and another did not, etc. etc.

It's one thing to expect volunteer's to the community to put a certain amount of effort into the work they volunteered to do, but there has to be some balance between those expectations and how much time can be expected of them. Agree or no?

[Steve]

@ chad: maybe then a "24 hour Thread Cooldown" button is a better approach.

Thus, a Mod can calm the storm, and not have to carry the consequence of subjectively stopping the discussion (permanently, that is).

It also prevents a Mod from carrying the resulting/possible "mistake," in shutting down a thread. Attempting to cool the flames is one thing—and can often be done be simply posting a "Hey Ladies and Germs, cool it!"—but presupposing is way to subjective, for me, at least.

I mean, we all can see that Hoihe was getting huffed in that thread, and that Metaquad was offering their opinion of how some statements Hoihe made seemed to border on godmodding—which is itself, debatable. Nonetheless, the discussion was still on-track to define whether PvP is something that can be pushed onto others via RP, or not. Which is still the issue (and the current Rules allows for PvP to be ignored at will). The discussion, I think, is still trying to come up with ways and means to bring the playerbase into a more "conscious and consequential" decisions, especially regarding PvP/CvC/conflict RP.

Chambo is right, though: as long as the playerbase can say what they think but be friendly about it—at least, not attacking the individual—then how about stop locking threads, and start steering people in a positive direction?!?

[Valefort]

When a lock happens you also have to avoid each other on any forum thread for 24 hours my fellow forum warriors

[metaquad4]

If you want people on the fourms to act like adults, treat them like adults. If you want them to act like children, treat them like children. You can't treat people like children and magically expect them to act like adults.

If it gets out of hand, as was suggested above, a 24 hour ban button (at-least from the OOC fourms) allows people to cool off and prevents further escalation. That is a really good idea. And limiting it to the OOC forums will still allow people to conduct RP successfully (perhaps prevent PMs, though) if they really need to. And that allows moderators to do their job more efficiently as well.

You -should- be free to express your true feeling on the fourms. Ideally, we'd get rid of the teen rating all together (but, I'm sure the teenager's [who are already probably watching porn and speaking their mind OOCly already] parents will complain). Go to the usual "online interactions are not rated" stuff. Maybe put a ban on ERP/Gore, in case the prudes get their panties in a twist over that (as if we don't already have them on the server, heh). But, that can't happen in this enviroment.

We are limited by the "teen" rating, which is a big part of the mentality around "treat the players like children". Under this mentality, the staff will never have a fully mature player-base and neither will the other players. A mature playerbase should be able to keep itself in check to a large degree (as adults do), but as it stands, that can't happen.

Rip off the band aid and let the wound heal properly. Don't keep it on forever.

Also, don't forget. . .locking threads is not a punishment. Locking threads doesn't really solve any issues at all. It just makes people think "Welp! I can just do what I like, and if something bad happens, the thread will be locked and I can just make another in a bit!". Its strictly a bandaid issue, and a poor one at that (as the behavior continues, just on other threads, getting them locked as well). I think the 24 hour ban button would be a lot better to show people that they are in the wrong, and it also doesn't kill the whole conversation.

The heavy usage of thread lock just makes it easier for the vocal minority who are in the wrong to kill meaningful conversation, simply by entering it. It isn't productive at all.

--------------------

Also, yes. Let us institute some more PvP rules for the fourms, shall we? Seems like a great idea!

[Hoihe]

If you want people on the fourms to act like adults, treat them like adults. If you want them to act like children, treat them like children. You can't treat people like children and magically expect them to act like adults.

If it gets out of hand, as was suggested above, a 24 hour ban button (at-least from the OOC fourms) allows people to cool off and prevents further escalation. That is a really good idea. And limiting it to the OOC forums will still allow people to conduct RP successfully (perhaps prevent PMs, though) if they really need to. And that allows moderators to do their job more efficiently as well.

You -should- be free to express your true feeling on the fourms. Ideally, we'd get rid of the teen rating all together (but, I'm sure the teenager's [who are already probably watching porn and speaking their mind OOCly already] parents will complain). Go to the usual "online interactions are not rated" stuff. Maybe put a ban on ERP/Gore, in case the prudes get their panties in a twist over that (as if we don't already have them on the server, heh). But, that can't happen in this enviroment.

We are limited by the "teen" rating, which is a big part of the mentality around "treat the players like children". Under this mentality, the staff will never have a fully mature player-base and neither will the other players. A mature playerbase should be able to keep itself in check to a large degree (as adults do), but as it stands, that can't happen.

Rip off the band aid and let the wound heal properly. Don't keep it on forever.

Also, don't forget. . .locking threads is not a punishment. Locking threads doesn't really solve any issues at all. It just makes people think "Welp! I can just do what I like, and if something bad happens, the thread will be locked and I can just make another in a bit!". Its strictly a bandaid issue, and a poor one at that (as the behavior continues, just on other threads, getting them locked as well). I think the 24 hour ban button would be a lot better to show people that they are in the wrong, and it also doesn't kill the whole conversation.

The heavy usage of thread lock just makes it easier for the vocal minority who are in the wrong to kill meaningful conversation, simply by entering it. It isn't productive at all.

--------------------

Also, yes. Let us institute some more PvP rules for the fourms, shall we? Seems like a great idea!

And this is why we can't have nice things. I congratulate you on your rather non-passive, but quite aggressive view of those who don't care for the things you care for. And people wonder why I am steadfast against "consent" based things as well - shaming folks into doing things, after all if they don't want to accept your point of view, they're obviously terrible roleplayers or "kids". Or are in a schrödinger's cat esque uncertainity of "Kid or squamish parent with their panties in a twist."


Edit:

Do you know what a mature community is like? They are able to co-exist peacefully. What most of these forum suggestions sound like to me? "I want the server to follow my own point of view, for it is the single true point of view", with a few posts that carry the undertone of "Anyone who disagrees is a bad roleplayer."

Somehow, your opposing side does not make any posts about forcing their views onto the server, at most, only when provoked.