Any recommendations for a dwarven PVP build? Brainstorming.

[chad878262]

You want higher DEX but will have to make a decision.... In Metaquads build he went with 10 INT to avoid losing skills, but dropping INT to 8 will allow raising DEX to 14 (though from an RP standpoint with min INT/WIS/CHA that's pretty rough).

You also have to consider your epic feats... You could drop either FB or BR to take Barbarian to 25, gaining an epic feat at 24 Barbarian, but otherwise you only have 6 epic feats (you get a bonus feat at Barbarian 20). If you want Expose Weakness that costs 2. Epic Rage costs another one, so best you can get is DR 9/- only if you don't need to take any great STR or great CON feats.

Everything is a trade off, you just have to determine what you want more.

[Babuguuscooties]

It's difficult to really know what I want to trade off though since im so inexperienced. What would you recommend with pvp in mind?

[chad878262]

I rarely ever PvP and I don't build with it in mind... For PvP I would drop Frenzied Berserker from the build since you will have plenty of offense and need more defense. I would either build B25/BR5 or B21/BR5/AK (or WoD) 4. AK/WoD provides blindfight and toughness alongside improved will saves at a cost of Iron Will and an Epic Feat so essentially it becomes a matter of if you need an epic feat more or if you want improved will saves and an extra pre-epic feat.

In epics I would prioritize reaching 22 STR, 21 CON, get Epic Rage, Epic DR 9/- and get Expose Weakness. That requires 6 feats so if you can get STR 22 / CON 21 with just stat increases you only need 20 Barbarian levels. If need a Great stat increase to hit those numbers go B25/BR5.

[Babuguuscooties]

I rarely ever PvP and I don't build with it in mind... For PvP I would drop Frenzied Berserker from the build since you will have plenty of offense and need more defense. I would either build B25/BR5 or B21/BR5/AK (or WoD) 4. AK/WoD provides blindfight and toughness alongside improved will saves at a cost of Iron Will and an Epic Feat so essentially it becomes a matter of if you need an epic feat more or if you want improved will saves and an extra pre-epic feat.

In epics I would prioritize reaching 22 STR, 21 CON, get Epic Rage, Epic DR 9/- and get Expose Weakness. That requires 6 feats so if you can get STR 22 / CON 21 with just stat increases you only need 20 Barbarian levels. If need a Great stat increase to hit those numbers go B25/BR5.

Thanks, Chad. I appreciate the help as always. Even if this build never reaches level 30 (level 7 currently) it's still helping me get a better grasp on how to build, and what things are necessary etc.

[Egg Shen]

If you're playing in conjunction with another player, you have a rather unique opportunity to build as a pair, and not just individually; builds that are conceptually designed with team play in mind and complement one another in novel ways to achieve results that wouldn't really be possible on their own.

Something to consider before you guys get too high in level.

[Babuguuscooties]

If you're playing in conjunction with another player, you have a rather unique opportunity to build as a pair, and not just individually; builds that are conceptually designed with team play in mind and complement one another in novel ways to achieve results that wouldn't really be possible on their own.

Something to consider before you guys get too high in level.

Well i am playing in a pair, so any suggestions?

[Egg Shen]

It could be something as simple as covering as many bases as possible between the two of you. So one of you could be designed as a detector and one as a mage hunter, for instance. But that's boring.

I think more fun concepts could include a character with a purposely low will save (think sneaker or warrior type) and a cleric with auto-silent III. When you cast silence on your pal and he fails his save, he has a mobile aura of silence that completely shuts down casters (well, all casters but you, that is). You could take animal domain and put it on your pet as well. Or a summon. Or whatever, just so long as there is no more damn talking by anyone. Ever!

Or maybe one character who specializes in feinting and/or blinding a target, while the other has massive sneak attack damage to capitalize on the situation.

A traveling band of bards! Obviously you just stack up the different inspirations and enjoy being permanently uber. All while getting the most beautiful groupies the Gate has to offer. Dang musicians...

Since most people design with just themselves in mind, it's pretty unexplored territory. I'm sure there's tons of untapped potential for team builds, as opposed to just character builds.

[Babuguuscooties]

It could be something as simple as covering as many bases as possible between the two of you. So one of you could be designed as a detector and one as a mage hunter, for instance. But that's boring.

I think more fun concepts could include a character with a purposely low will save (think sneaker or warrior type) and a cleric with auto-silent III. When you cast silence on your pal and he fails his save, he has a mobile aura of silence that completely shuts down casters (well, all casters but you, that is). You could take animal domain and put it on your pet as well. Or a summon. Or whatever, just so long as there is no more damn talking by anyone. Ever!

Or maybe one character who specializes in feinting and/or blinding a target, while the other has massive sneak attack damage to capitalize on the situation.

A traveling band of bards! Obviously you just stack up the different inspirations and enjoy being permanently uber. All while getting the most beautiful groupies the Gate has to offer. Dang musicians...

Since most people design with just themselves in mind, it's pretty unexplored territory. I'm sure there's tons of untapped potential for team builds, as opposed to just character builds.

lol those all sounds wonderful, but I'm so new I don't even know how to sift through what's worth exploring and what isn't. I definitely am interested though. The idea of teamplay is the best idea to me, and seeing as I do have someone to play with pretty reliably I think it'd be a missed opportunity not to capitalize on it.

[chad878262]

A massive Strength Barbarian tank with Shield Slam plus a high damage sneak attacker would rock. A simple R21/A9 for example for 16d6 sneak dice. For Epic feats you want Epic Precision, Epic Dodge, and Expose Weakness so you may not have many feats left, but if so you take improved sneak attack. In fact, working as a tandem you really could skip epic dodge and just get improved sneak dice. And if your buddy gets expose weakness you might be able to skip that as well. In this manner you could realistically end up with ~22d6 sneak attack dice. So for instance if your Shield Slam build is a Standard Rage Barbarian dwarf, perhaps something like:

B20/DC5/BR5 you'll get 7 Epic feats (1 from B20 and 1 from DC4). You need Epic Rage, Epic Prowess, Expose Weakness and DR 3, 6 and 9 leaving you with one feat with which you'll likely need for a Great STR or Great CON. You want to end up with 22 STR and 21 CON if possible, if not you'll have to 'make due' with 21 STR. Of course another option is not to worry about hitting 21 CON and getting the high DR, instead getting STR as high as possible (~26, 36 with Epic Rage). For Pre-epic feats you'll need Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam. That leaves 4 feats that will be your choice, but remember you need Weapon Focus for Divine Champion and Power Attack/Cleave for Battlerager, so you only have one remaining feat if you go this route (EDIT: you get 2 feats since Divine Champion will give a bonus feat at level 2). Note that it is likely better to go for Knockdown/Improved Knockdown, but as has been shown previously trying to get your Dwarf to 22 STR, 21 CON and 14 DEX won't likely leave the points to get INT to 13. If you want to drop the DR in epics and leave CON at ~15 or 17 then IKD is the way to go, but you'll lose some of your 'tankiness' and Knockdown doesn't open opponents to sneak attacks while Shield Slam does.

This is just one example of course, but it gives you something to think about as to how you build for synergy. Barbarian has listen as a class skill so you could pump that as high as possible for some detection while the rogue could pump spot. The Rogue can attack from HiPS and try to paralyze opponents, and when that doesn't work you shield charge in and then shield slam opponents to open up more sneak attack opportunities.

[Egg Shen]

If both pc's splash 3 levels of bodyguard (which is a highly efficient and useful splash in its own right), you could each target the other with the Guarding the Lord ability, thereby becoming completely immune to damage as it bounces back and forth forever!

Okay, that probably wouldn't happen, but it should grant what amounts to 20% damage resistance for both of you, which is pretty awesome!

[Babuguuscooties]

All pretty cool ideas. What about the old concept of a lumbering barbarian half-orc who is the muscle, and a lightfoot halfling rogue who is the guile and the self-described "brains"? That sounds like it'd fit nicely with the dynamic of a barbarian and rogue combo!

[CrimsonMist]

All pretty cool ideas. What about the old concept of a lumbering barbarian half-orc who is the muscle, and a lightfoot halfling rogue who is the guile and the self-described "brains"? That sounds like it'd fit nicely with the dynamic of a barbarian and rogue combo!

These guys from Paizo, right? I love that idea.

[Babuguuscooties]

All pretty cool ideas. What about the old concept of a lumbering barbarian half-orc who is the muscle, and a lightfoot halfling rogue who is the guile and the self-described "brains"? That sounds like it'd fit nicely with the dynamic of a barbarian and rogue combo!

These guys from Paizo, right? I love that idea.

Pretty much, yep. Could be a lovable duo, or maybe they are extortionists! lol who knows. Characters like that are bound to operate on some level of chaotic grey.

[Theodore01]

All pretty cool ideas. What about the old concept of a lumbering barbarian half-orc who is the muscle, and a lightfoot halfling rogue who is the guile and the self-described "brains"? That sounds like it'd fit nicely with the dynamic of a barbarian and rogue combo!

Switch the roles for even more fun

[Babuguuscooties]

All pretty cool ideas. What about the old concept of a lumbering barbarian half-orc who is the muscle, and a lightfoot halfling rogue who is the guile and the self-described "brains"? That sounds like it'd fit nicely with the dynamic of a barbarian and rogue combo!

Switch the roles for even more fun

Lol, so like how would that work?