Whirlwind Frenzy vs Standard Rage

[clean_slate]

So what is the deal with the new Standard Rage? Correct me if I'm wrong :

Standard Epic Rage bonuses :

+10 Strength
+150 HP
+5 rounds of Rage duration
+5 Fortitude Save
+13 Will Save
+5 to damage
+2 Regeneration
+4 to Saves vs Enchantment spells

Whirlwind Frenzy Epic Rage bonuses :

+10 Strength
+5 Dodge AC
+5 Reflex Save
+1 Attack at highest AB
-2 AB penalty

So, STR bonus is the same. Aditional damage from WF's extra attack is pretty much canceled out by AB penalty and SR's +5 damage per hit.

WF gets Reflex saves while SR gets Will saves. Not sure if nwn2 wikia description of Epic Rage is correct there, it says that Epic Rage gets +8 to Will saves. But still SR gets Intomitable Soul which gives it a big edge coupled with CON bonuses to Will (Steadfast) and Fortitude.

And last, WF gives +5 Dodge AC, IF you are going 2h. SR on the other hand gives +150 HP and 2 Regeneration, as well as effectively Extended Rage feat.

So it seems for me that Standard Rage is a better option. Especially if you couple it with Northlander Hewing and go sword and board. What do you think?

[mrm3ntalist]

Depends the build you are going for. I still prefer the Whirling Rage, but i can see builds that Standard rage can be useful

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

IMO, the AC penalty to SR should've stayed, or AB penalty to WF should be removed. This way SR gets the edge, especially like you said with Northlander Hewing since attacks per round are rounded down, so you don't get anything out of WF's extra attack.

[AC81]

2-H whirlwind with IPA and no shield for extra damage seems like a good way to combine good AC, damage reduction and high damage. I think there's a use for both rages (and strong uses). Barbarian now has a great many viable build combo's. Funny how that happened ...

[chad878262]

note that with steadfast you gain bonus to will from increased CON. The +8 is accurate, but with +10 CON you gain 150hp, 5 rounds increased rage duration and +5 will saves from steadfast. Thus wiki description is accurate.

[Rudolph]

I also think both have good uses as they are - SR being better for shield builds, WF for two-handing. The problem now is that it's hard not to go Barbarian if one wants a melee fighter type, though the many custom combat feats keep fighter still in the running.

And for those of you who enjoy disappointed build optimizers : I had assumed the Barbarian rage CON does not count as an enhancement bonus (since it stacks with those) and hence works with Fist of the Forest for a wonderfully solid Bikini Barbarian. Not true alas. That nakedness comes at a cost...

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

note that with steadfast you gain bonus to will from increased CON. The +8 is accurate, but with +10 CON you gain 150hp, 5 rounds increased rage duration and +5 will saves from steadfast. Thus wiki description is accurate.

Indeed. Assuming that both versions have Steadfast, Standard Rage will have :

+13 Will Saves
+4 Will Saves vs Enchantment Spells
+5 Fortitude
-5 Reflex

That is absolutely huge difference from the defensive side. WF will get +5 Dodge AC, but +150 HP, 2 Regen, extra feat and +13 to saves more than makes up for it, IMO. Offensively additional attack is nice, but AB penalty kills it because it almost covers the penalty from using PA/IPA. So effectively for a 2h Barbarian damage comparation is :

WF : +1 AB, +1 Attack per round
SR : +11 Damage per hit (6 PA/IPA, 5 Rage)

I would also pick SR here.

[Valefort]

Standard rage can be nrefed back a little if need be.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

You should just put back 2 AC penalty, or give 2 AB penalty like WF. It is not such a huge change to warrant rebuilds, but it should balance it out quite nicely.

[TeoDeathDealer]

Anyone have a good gnome/hin barbarian build? Would love to do one with monkey grip using a spear for the extra 1.5x damage.

[Theodore01]

Just go for barb20/duelist10 You could even take low blow

[Sun Wukong]

So it seems for me that Standard Rage is a better option. Especially if you couple it with Northlander Hewing and go sword and board. What do you think?

In the long run, Standard Rage is mechanically speaking the superior choice.

Number of attacks with Northlander Hewing:

Code: Select all

2 => 1 (Bab of 6),  2 (With Whirlwind Frenzy) 
3 => 2 (Bab of 11), 2 (With Whirlwind Frenzy) 
4 => 2 (Bab of 16), 3 (With Whirlwind Frenzy) 
5 => 3 (Bab of 21), 4 (With Whirlwind Frenzy)
6 => 4 (Bab of 26), 4 (With Whirlwind Frenzy)

When you are leveling up, the extra attack you get from Whirlwind Frenzy often grants you that additional Northlander Hewing Attack. This is very handy against opponents with high DR, AC, or casters that manage to cast their Death Armor/Elemental Shield spell. (Imagine Vampires) But as you can see, at BAB of 26 Whirlwind Frenzy no longer has this advantage over Standard Rage.

Which means, that you should ask yourself if you really need the +3 or +5 extra Dodge AC, when you could get much higher saves, extra hit point bulk, additional regeneration, extra damage, and even longer rage duration, without a SINGLE NEGATIVE to speak off?

Well... I suppose you should also consider the fact that Northlander Hewing does decrease your possible damage output if your opponent has little to no DR, low AC, and doesn't have spells effects such as Elemental Shield or Death Armor on them. In these cases it makes more sense to just turn of Northlander Hewing and just roll as many attacks as you can. Although with BAB of 21 and 26 I have just kept Northlander Hewing active 24/7, I just like seeing how the big damage numbers match up with the attack animations.

I am saying these things as an active player of barbarian characters.

Anyone have a good gnome/hin barbarian build? Would love to do one with monkey grip using a spear for the extra 1.5x damage.

I have played one of those before. I would recommend Strongheart Halfling just for the extra feat, which lets you grab the Monkey Grip feat later on without affecting your build all that much.

As for build itself, Barbarian 20/Anything else 10 works like a charm. Extend Rage feats are good to have and you should get them to at least to Extend Rage III. Now, the interesting thing is that you do not necessarily need to get Power Attack or Northlander Hewing if you just keep pumping up your strength as high as possible.

16 (Base, halfling maxed at character creation)
+ 2 (Enchantment Bonus item)
+ 10 (Epic Rage)
+ 7 (Ability Increases)
+ 5 (Great Strength feats)
= 40

That gives you strength modifier of 15, so you do +22 strength damage with your spear. If you make use of Anointed Knight or Warrior of Darkness you can get two additional Great Strength feats and reach 42 Strength, modifier of 16, and +24 strength damage with your spear.

Well... If you do take the Northlander Hewing:
10 (Spear)
+ 22 (Strength)
+ 4 (EB)
+ 15 (Northlander Hewing)
= 51 (Per hit) (Max 4 attacks per round)

Well... If you do take the Improved Power Attack:
1d10 (Spear)
+ 22 (Strength)
+ 4 (EB)
+ 12 (Improved Power Attack)
= 43.5~ (Per hit) (Max 7 attacks per round)

Thus, you could go for the Barbarian 20/Duelist 10 build mentioned before and get +2d6 extra damage per hit, and Duelist Haste so you can go for the far superior Standard Rage.

But once again, Barbarian 20/'Something else 10' will work just fine. Just go for what you want. (High strenght builds are simplest to go for.)