Market Inefficiencies

[Maecius]

*Maecius keeps nervously printing money.*

This should fix it eventually . . . right?

[AC81]

So the system is currently as good as it can be.

I disagree. Judging by your forum post - you have the largest collection of epic items so I can understand why you don't want to lose bartering power. However, it's not whats best for 90% of the server when they can't buy any of what you have with gold.

I already lost a huge amount of bargaining power and gold value when these shops were introduced. Some people saw an option to make merchant/appraise specialty pc's who did the Hell run and got those items cheaply. I went the other way and sought to specialise my item list even further. You talk about 90% vs 10% as though 90% of the server can't do what I and Karond or many others have done. There are lots of people in my position, they just don't advertise it. Anyone can do what I've done, it just takes time. This is my 9th year here, sorry if I don't think people should have gear of my quality after 1 year. I'd also like to add that around 2-3 years ago, I gave most of my items away and have built them back up in that time. I also randomly give people items if I RP or know them well enough (ie, if I know they aren't blow-ins who won't stay). There are many ways to get epic items but only a select few ways to get the VERY best ... surely that is how it should be.

At least epic shops (and hopefully crafting) can give players something to strive for.

You understand that eventually those items will be so common they will essentially lose all value?

The hell shop items are different to other stores in that they are the best. Their value will dip a little, but only as far as the pc appraise merchants allow them to go. As they are the best items available for gold on the server their demand will not disappear unless other, better items are introduced in shops. Players will always strive for this gear at a minimum.

So:
*anyone can get epic gear,
*anyone (given enough time) can get better than Avernus gear,
*and here's the kicker - you don't actually need any of it to succeed on this server!
So where is the problem? Is it that immersion breaking that gold is limitless (provided you grind endlessly)?

[Wolfrayne]

*Maecius keeps nervously printing money.*

This should fix it eventually . . . right?

Honestly there is no easy fix. no matter what you do someone is going to be upset. In the long run you have to look at what is healthier for the server. Sure you need to accommodate for old players but if you arent willing to change things to help new blood you will be left with the same people and eventually it will die off.

At this stage it is impossible for any new merchant players to really break in to the market without that lucky "drop" or an incredibly huge investment of time. I have heard so many people say "there are only two or three people" they will deal with when it comes to buying and selling which is really unfortunate because it puts all the market power in their hands. There needs to be competition for a healthy market.

Im not saying take away everything these people have worked their asses off for because that would be wrong, But you NEED to make things more accessible to everyone for a healthy market. One shop in a place that only a few people can make it to is not going to be enough to "help" because all it does in truth is lockdown those items to the few people with the means to get to them and then sell them off on their terms.

Why risk going to hellshop to buy something for 500k when you can buy it from one of the 3 people with huge appraise scores for 300k?....

I know for the sake of roleplay etc "Merchant NPC have limited money" but this is a video game No matter how hard we argue about it. Think about some of the players who have litterally MILLIONS of gold and items etc... they could buy out the whole damn city....(yes i know dukes wouldnt allow it etc)

[Wandering_Woodsman]

So, I could buy something for 300k as opposed to half a million at this hellshop, which I still don't know a thing about beyond being a drool-fest for gear?

300k? Just 300K?

cackles madly as the men in white coats cart him away to the funnyfarm for poor saps

Honestly, I'm all for just a crafting system. That way, it's not just that you have to buy/sell, but you can also craft as well. It adds a new element that can then bounce around for a while untill someone gets into the swing of things with it.

Rather like the merchants now who have the market (somewhat) cornered on this or that, crafters can do the same thing, only it would widen the market and make things more available and of various types, styles, etc.

More variety is better in this case I believe.

[Wolfrayne]

So, I could buy something for 300k as opposed to half a million at this hellshop, which I still don't know a thing about beyond being a drool-fest for gear?

300k? Just 300K?

cackles madly as the men in white coats cart him away to the funnyfarm for poor saps

Honestly, I'm all for just a crafting system. That way, it's not just that you have to buy/sell, but you can also craft as well. It adds a new element that can then bounce around for a while untill someone gets into the swing of things with it.

Rather like the merchants now who have the market (somewhat) cornered on this or that, crafters can do the same thing, only it would widen the market and make things more available and of various types, styles, etc.

More variety is better in this case I believe.

That was my point.. i used the hellshop as an example.

[Rinzler]

At this stage it is impossible for any new merchant players to really break in to the market without that lucky "drop" or an incredibly huge investment of time.

Agreed

Im not saying take away everything these people have worked their asses off for because that would be wrong

Agreed

But you NEED to make things more accessible to everyone for a healthy market.

Agreed

[metaquad4]

Take away NPC shops.

No seriously it sounds silly but think about it. If you take away NPC shops you will force players to trade/buy/sell from one another. No hell shop no epic shop nothing like that. You want good items etc buy from ppl.

Adjust the drop rates increase gold/item drops to compensate.

That is what other servers have done, and it actually does work. Sigil and Haven both have excellent working economies, and both have minimized the role NPCs have to play in the economy. PoS/ToA did this as well, though they removed all NPC shops (except for basic +0 vendors, and resurrection items) and it worked as well.

BG can't do this, though. Not without completely re-vamping its loot system. The loot table we have is the thing that holds us back from this. In those servers, there were proper loot systems in place. Our loot systems are made for gold grinders, on the other hand, and are made to produce gold by selling trash, in order to buy from epic merchants. Rather than producing quality loot to buy, sell, and trade with other players for their quality loot (as the other servers do). Our economy is centered around using NPCs to get good items, rather than player interactions.

And from my own observations and experience, there is too much pride and stubborn-ness to take that leap. We are very much "set in our ways" at this point. It would be good to have (and I support it fully), but economy is not something this server does well. And, I can't see it happening.

[Wolfrayne]

And from my own observations and experience, there is too much pride and stubborn-ness to take that leap. We are very much "set in our ways" at this point. It would be good to have (and I support it fully), but economy is not something this server does well. And, I can't see it happening.

This is something i have noticed a lot of as well.. "I have been here this long and worked this hard to get X" It often comes up when talking about grandfather items.. Look don't get me wrong i have respect for the "elites" and "veterans" as they did indeed work hard to get where they are but you cant win every goddamn time. Something NEEDS to change. This server NEEDS a massive shakeup.

[Babuguuscooties]

I guess I don't fully grasp the difference here. What is a grandfather'd item? What does that look like compared to say an Avernus shop item?

[Maecius]

Personally, I'd argue that merchant roleplay is accessible to pretty much everyone already.

Those existing, successful merchant PCs didn't just come out of nowhere, after all. They've worked to establish themselves. If some PCs claim that they will only go to a certain PC merchant, then that's not necessarily indicative of a problem. That just tells you that the merchant character has established a loyal customer base for themselves -- and there's nothing wrong with that.

Having had a very long history with this server, I can pretty confidently say that I've seen numerous successful merchant PCs over the years. None of the current ones have been here "since the beginning." They come and go, like most characters, with new merchants filling in where the old ones have retired. They all wind up successful in their own ways if they stick to their missions, though, and if they understand the server's economy (that is, the mechanical and roleplay desires and needs of the other players).

But let's say you don't want to mix treasure with trade? What if you want to buy and sell grain or import exotic goods from faraway Calimshan?

Well, we've also had merchant PCs who focused not on trading gear but on general "trade roleplay" -- the Sword Coast Commercial Exchange, Darius Holding Company, etc., all come to mind. Places where you don't need to grind a single day to get involved in mercantile roleplay. These players are usually cash-poor compared to the gear traders, but they tend to have more influence with the NPCs (and with player guilds) because they establish themselves as providers of goods and services that the gear merchants don't deal in.

Then of course there are craft merchants, like the wand and potion dealers. There may be more crafters eventually, once we establish more complete crafting systems, but this will also expand trade options for players interested in crafting goods and selling them.

In other words, there's probably already dozens of types of economics-focused roleplay available to players. And there will probably be more types of play along this avenue in the future. But there's of course going to be some competition, and you are going to have to work to establish yourself in the player market. Nobody is going to guarantee you success: That's always going to be something you have to achieve for yourself. And I think that's fair. Just because you want to be a successful merchant doesn't mean you're going to be, after all. And "struggling merchant" roleplay is perfectly legitimate roleplay as well.

But like anything that's based on reputation, if you really do want to be successful you have to establish yourself by playing true to your role, advertising your services, and working hard over time until the other players recognize your name and understand that you're a merchant. Then you have to give them reasons to either value your services, or value your roleplay -- and therefore to choose to go to you. You can't just roll a merchant character up and expect to be established in a week. None of the other players are going to even know who you are yet. It takes a measure of dedication to convince your fellow players that you're actually worth tracking down and engaging for merchant RP.

Of course, all of this is more about establishing a merchant character than it is about balancing the server economy. Right now, we're honestly not putting much effort into the latter. If anything, the creation of things like the Avernus store and the other gold sinks and epic stores flies in the face of any efforts to balance the economy. Removing them might help towards making a more tightly controlled and carefully managed economy, as has been argued, but I don't know if that's actually a goal worth pursuing?

We've always made it a point to try to give players a variety of options in the way they play the game here. We take great pride in supporting multiple player styles, and multiple roleplaying types, and removing an avenue of play from players just to try to artificially stand up or encourage player-to-player trading systems seems like it would diminish, not enhance, the server in that arena. Besides, we're not really in it to create a "realistic" server, or a "working" economy: Our focus has always been more on creating a place that's fun for the majority of its players and that allows for great stories to be told. Storytelling is definitely more the focus than realism or immersion at BG:TSCC, and we've shot down ideas like "needing to eat or rest daily" because, while realistic, it's a chore. Let people decide if their character is hungry, don't impose on them the need to mechanically manage a "hunger" stat. I suppose, in the end, we tend to value "fun factor" and "player customization/freedom of play styles" much more highly than we do any goal of making the server an accurate facsimile of the real world.

[Babuguuscooties]

Well besides, removing all shops that give even +1, +2 gear and forcing an economy dependent on player trading hurts new players doesn't it?

[dedude]

There is no problem with shops selling +1 and +2 gear. There is a problem with shops having unlimited amounts of gold to buy looted gear. If you want to have any sort of control over inflation you need to control the amount of money in circulation. Epic shops (and pre-epic shops) are a band aid that makes the wheels go around, but limits the free market economics. It's basically controlled prices on bread and vodka. But it sorta works well enough to prevent the game from breaking down.

A bigger problem is that we have a player economy instead of a character economy. So gold and items are very rarely phased out of the game economy, but simply accumulates over time.

[Steve]

^^

Nerf the Player!!

But seriously, there a plenty of Market Economy solutions that can actually be implemented, but the argument always boils down to whether it will make the Game less F.U.N.

I'll assume the majority come to BGTSCC for Fun, not for hassle (though enough are here for challenges).

[Babuguuscooties]

Speaking from a newer player's perspective, the reason I am wary of drastic changes to the in-game economy is out of fear that players who haven't had the opportunity to accrue any epic gear will be further set back if its say, no longer available in an epic or pre-epic shop. Where-as many players have already greatly benefited from said shops. So essentially you will split the server further in two by having those who already have items from avernus etc, and those who are now blocked off from ever having that same opportunity.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. I realize I don't have the full picture.

[chad878262]

The problem with NPC merchants having limited gold is that you will then have the players who log in at ever reset, use teleport to go to every merchant and sell their gear. They still are able to loot grind and sell goods for gold while the more casual players (or simply the players who aren't as efficient) are left with no merchants on the server willing to buy their loot, so they just throw it in trash cans, only keeping those items that are at least worthy of Mudd's. This will not fix the economy, it will only worsen this mentality of an 'elite' or 'haves' and 'have-nots'.

It's funny when I reflect on threads such as this because many of the changes that have been made over the past ~year and a half have been based on players (like me) arguing that players that have not been on the server for 4+ years had no way to compete. DM rewards were obviously more frequent and stronger in yester-year, there were no epic shops and the loot table dropped more copper rings than all other items combined. Yet now I'm sure I am one of those that some posts call out for having more stuff than everyone else.

The difference is, when I joined (Sept. 2014) there was no option to buy any epic gear AT ALL. I didn't get my first epic item until I'd been on the server over a year (a handaxe) and even that was essentially a gift in the sense that a long time player sold it to me (for 100K and a pair of boots of etherealness) even though he had a better offer from another, more established player. His reasoning was the other player already had tons of epic items, while I had none. So prior to March 2016 you truly had to get a lucky drop (win the lottery) or you had to end up with a long time player taking pity on you and choosing to let you purchase some epic item they have.

So 2 1/2 years ago, I would have agreed, there is nothing a new player can do to compete with those that had been here for a long time and had uber gear. However, since then we introduced Epic Shops (not just Avernus either!), we introduced Party Looting of chests, allowing for those who want to adventure with a group to not split chests, Endelyon increased the chances for low-mid range loot (rather than copper rings) improving how much gold can be made and now dedude has implemented a chance for chests to drop RIG loot.

I'm sorry, but the fact is it is easier than it has ever been for new players to break through and compete with long time players. It just takes putting EFFORT in to doing so. Several of the merchant posts in the Auction forums are not just old/longtime players rich in old/grandfathered items... They are new players that are trying to make a name for themselves and they still do a fair business. Go back and search posts from me 2 years ago (if they weren't lost when we did one of our forum changes) and you will see in those threads the very us vs. them mentality that existed because there was NOTHING you could do to break through other than get lucky on a 1 in a billion chance at an epic loot drop in a chest or a crazy good RIG item. There are MANY things you can do now to end up with epic loot, but it still requires you to put time in to the acquisition.