School me on paladin building

[WatWatsen]

So I wanna roll up a classical sword-and-board paladin who's good and PVM and PVP, trouble is, I hear they suck. :V It seems like there's several schools of thought here, you can roll up a great smiter and go all in on CHA, but you're a one-trick pony and suck when something isn't evil, and you're vulnerable to knockdown. If you go all-in on STR then you lose all your neat pally abilities... You can split STR and CHA and go for EDM, or you can chase getting both EDM + some great smites but be mediocre at both... or perhaps a hybrid build that mixes in other classes for more feats but at the expense of spellcasting (e.g. a friend recommended 10 ftr/10 pal/5 DC/5 AK).

Is there a way to get the best of both worlds as it were? I've heard people say that a pure (or pure-ish) pally is one of the most well-rounded chars around... I was thinking at least 20 levels of paladin ideally, but that's not set in stone. What would good mix-ins be? I like anointed knight, but divine champion and/or man at arms might be good options too... any other ideas to bounce around, feats to go for? I'm thinking either human or aasimar, knight of Chauntea with a flail (thought it sounded like a neat concept, apologize if it's been done a million times :V)

[Sun Wukong]

The basement of Blushing Mermaid does sell some flails. I think they might all be light flails, so those do not work with Power Attack, but Weapon Focus flail should work with them.

Anyhow, the reason why pure paladins work best is because it is the easiest way to get those Epic Bonus feats. If you do not, then you need to use a PRC such as Hospitaler and that PRC alone requires you to get Practised Spellcaster. Thus, other multiclassing choices you have are usually nothing more than taking 4 levels of some PRC or base class, such as Anointed, Knight Fighter, Man-at-Arms, or Rogue.

Now, the big question here is whether you want to make use of the Custom Paladin Kits or not.

You could go for Cavalier, and since you cannot get Turn Undead based abilities with it, it would be good idea to invest highly in strength and go for wisdom to get additional spell slots. (With 18 wisdom you get +1 per spell slot.) Additionally, you do get those favored enemy feats, and Shield Slam for free, and together those do give you quite a large damage potential. Paladin spell list enables them to get +8 to strength, so you can reach something like 40 strength for a modifier of +15 quite easily. Thus, your five favored enemy feats and strength modifier alone give you +20 damage per hit. Now add a feat Like Northlander Hewing, and you do +35 damage a hit, plus whatever your weapon and spells do. Note: Northlander hewing does reduce your number attacks to a 2/3rds of your total.

The other choice is a Divinate. What makes divinate powerful is that it makes all your spells automatically extended, and you will gain additional level 1, 2, and 3 spell slots. This is great for an EDM paladin, because it means that you can maintain your +8 to Strength and Charisma for a much longer period. Not to mention that you will be sitting at buffed up 30 strength and 30 charisma, so with EDM and your strength modifier you will be doing +30 damage a hit before factoring in your weapon.

And you could do both without using either kits, but these kits are very wonderful things for a Paladin and it would be unwise not to use them.


But from a role-playing perspective, Paladin of Chauntea. "Paladins of the Grain Goddess are rare. They value compassion as much as courage, and spend much time helping common folk in rural areas." Thus I would go for such skills as Diplomacy, Heal, Lore: Local, Lore: Geography, Lore: Nature, Lore: Architechture and Engineering, and Appraise. In short it helps to be diplomatic, able to heal the sick, know about local things, where to farm, when to farm, how to help fix a broken wagon wheel, and perhaps aid a farmer to get the best price for their crops.

Therefore, I would actually go for a build such as: Paladin 26/Harper Scout 4 - because that PRC opens up all the skills I mentioned above and possibly guild RP with two factions. It all depends on whether the Order of Radiant Heart or the Harpers happen to be more active.

Thus, I would prefer to go for a human, and perhaps Cavelier at it because it would let me invest in intelligence to get all those lovely skill points to max out skills. But honestly, 5 ranks in the lore skills should be enough to help most farmers.

So, have I given you any ideas as to what might sound nice? Just asking before I go around making a build.

[Deathgrowl]

(e.g. a friend recommended 10 ftr/10 pal/5 DC/5 AK).

Are you sure this was a friend?

Anyways, decent splits of pure (ish) paladins are various:

Paladin26/anointed knight4. This can be either strength, edm or smite focused.

Paladin26/fighter4. This works like the one above, except it gets one more damage but loses a nice skillset. But might be useful for some more feats.

Paladin26/monk4 or paladin24/monk6. The latter of course gets free improved knockdown. Should wear light armour and have minimum 14 dexterity, though, which means getting EDM is at least a bit more min-maxy. Has great skillset though!

Paladin18/fighter12. This works well both EDM and strength (though high strength is definitely my preference with this). It is played basically like any other fighter12 kind of build, but with the added bonus of access to all paladin spells. It can be dispelled, but isn't entirely shut down by it. It doesn't rely on the magic. It's just a nice bonus!

In the end though, straight up paladin30 is fine.

That is, all of these work fine in PvE. I don't help people build for PvP.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Paladin 30 to be a true paladin.

[chad878262]

personally I like p26/ak4...AK gives tower shield proficiency as well as tumble and spell craft. Costs iron will and practiced spell caster, but in turn gives toughness and blind fight. The bonus 1 fire damage for troll killing is just gravy.

[Sun Wukong]

About the Paladin/Monk, you could use quarterstaff and Flurry of Blows, and basically if you start with 14 DEX and WIS, you just need to drink two potions to get both to 18. Hence in a way you get the AC of a Chain Shirt unarmed. Plus Flurry of Blows with either EDM or high strength Northlander Hewing.

[Steve]

Kits are cool.

I've mulled over a Paladin 4 / Divinate (19), Anointed Knight (4), Cleric (3) with EDM. 27 CL and some extra goodies unlocked with Cleric + AK. This build allows me to achieve a 51 AC / 43 AB w/ IPA / 44–55 dmg per hit w/ 6 apr. All that damage will crit, and the build has improved Knockdown.

So if you have to play a holy a-hole, than GO FOR IT! The power is there. And in many different ways, as shown in the previous builds mentioned.

[WatWatsen]

I think I'm sold on a 30 str pal with the cavalier kit. Some dumb questions:

How does kit leveling work? I gather that I lose some abilities in return for others, but are they implemented as basically a separate multiclass? I.e. will I end up as a cavalier 19/paladin 11 and so never get access to high level pally things like the bonus feats and more smites? If that's the case, will cavalier screw over pally spellcasting? Or is it just "you lose lay on hands, turn undead, and remove disease, but also gain these feats on these levels".

Would building for charging be an effective build? Would shield bash/charge/slam work with northlander hewing? Could go for dire charge in the epic levels, would powerful charge be worth it as well?

Kinda stumped at how to put all this together. Def either human or aasimar. I'd like to build towards as much great smiting as possible. Will I want to go for extend spell, or is the pally spellbook so limited that there won't be room for it? Steadfast determination would be nice but I'm not sure if I'll be able to squeeze in the feats for that + the toughness prereq, since I won't be able to snag it for free off AK. Can't forget blind fight of course. Also stumped about the stat split since I want some of everything. I gather that cha will be of less use since I can't go for EDM, so really all it gives is +saves... I'm not sure if I should go for 18 str to get it as high as possible, or keep it lower at say 16 to have more points to spread around.

Thanks much for the input, everyone! All suggestions welcome.

[chad878262]

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... Class_Kit)

You lose lay on hands, turn undead and remove disease. Spell casting remains intact.

[Sun Wukong]

Great Smite requires 25 charisma and epic feats, thus Great Smiter must start the game with 20 Charisma and spend all 5 ability increases on Charisma... Then spend all epic feats on Great Smite... You should be able to get 8 Great Smite feats, therefore your Paladin 30 would be dealing 270 damage per smite.

Now if you want a Smiter, just go standard Paladin without any kit. You should be able to get 26 charisma, which is 34 with your buffs and have +12 modifier to be used with regular Divine Might and Divine Shield. Thus starting strength of 14 would end up at 22 with your buffs, a modifier of +6. Hence your AB would be something like:

30 (BAB)
+ 6 (Strength)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
= 41 (Which is enough for this server)

Your damage would be:
1d8 (Longsword)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 12 (Divine Might)
+ 6 ( or + 9 Strength modifier)
= 27.5~ (Which is bit on the low side, but it will get the job done.)

Personally what I would do is get one Great Charisma so that I can reach base 28 Charisma, but that would drop Great Smite damage to 240. But it is one extra use of Turn Undead, and +1 round of Divine Might/Shield duration and potency. So I'd say it is worth it.

As for feats:
1: Luck of Heroes,
3: Power Attack
6: Divine Might
9: Divine Shield
12: Extra Turning
15: Extra Smite
18: Blindfight
21: Great Smite I
23: Great Smite II, Great Smite III
25: Great Smite IV
26: Great Smite V
27: Great Smite VI
29: Great Smite VII, Great Smite VIII

You could drop Luck of Heroes, and take Extra Smite at level, which would let you get Extra Turning II at level 15. (More uses of Divine Shield and Divine Might.) Additionally, you may switch one Great Smite for Great Charisma at any level of your choosing.

[WatWatsen]

What would you suggest, stat and feat wise, for your first idea about a high str cavalier with northlander hewing? That sounds a lot more balanced. I had been thinking that since cavalier gets great smiting I it might be fun to work some of those in, but I didn't realize it takes CHA 25 and require the whole build to be focused around it.

If I pick aasimar, I could do 18 str/10 dex/14 con/12 int/11 wis/13 cha. Figured I could get the gauntlets from Beregost for +2 dex and two-weapon fighting to help with shield bash. Alternately, if I dropped str to 16 I could bump wis and cha to 15 each, which would sit at 18 with a +3 item (to get the extra spells per level like you suggested, and help with saves). Can't decide which is better.

Feel kinda lost about which feats to take though. Would taking things to boost charges and shield bashes be a waste of time?

[Sun Wukong]

As for Strength based Paladin... Cavalier... Here is a potential build for you: http://nwn2db.com/build/?276223

It can do the things you wanted it to do few posts back, and I included the RP fluff I mentioned earlier.

Your Smite damage will be 60. Not the greatest, but it is better than nothing. (You get those feats for free anyhow...)

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

I'd love that 6 Monk levels on a Paladin build. Evasion, better saves, Tumble, Spot and free IKD.

[WatWatsen]

Well look at that, a cavalier of Chauntea!

Here's what I'm thinking, tell me what you think? Anything you'd change or swap out?

Aasimar, str 16/dex10/con14/int14/wis15/cha13 (assuming a +2 dex item, +3 wis for the bonus spells like you mentioned, +3 cha item, I could drop con to 12 and cha up to 15 for better saves at the expense of HP, which may be a poor decision? :V)

1 Luck of Heroes
3 Knockdown
6 Northlander Hewing
9 Powerful Charge
12 Improved Knockdown
15 Blindfight
18 Improved Initiative
21 Dire Charge
23 Toughness, Steadfast Determination
25 Armor Skin
26 Great Strength 1
27 Great Strength 2
29 Great Strength 3, Great Strength 4

Should also get pally bonus feats at 23, 26, and 29, for more great strengths?

[Sun Wukong]

That ends up at an odd strength score. You get +8 from your spells, so either you need another great strength or you could free another feat for something else.

But let us talk about Steadfast Determination, in your build it only gives you the ability to not automaticall fail a fortitude or will save on a roll of one. Now, since you do have that one extra feat from earlier, I would recommend you to get: Toughness, Epic Toughness and Epic Resilience. It would net you +30 hitpoints and you would not automatically fail your saves with a poor roll. You still need to beat the DC, but an unlucky roll of one will not get you automatically killed.

You will end up at buffed up strength of 34, which is strength modifier of +12. It is still fine.

So replace Steadfast Determination with Epic Toughness, Armor Skin with Epic Resilience, and Great Strength IV with Armor Skin.

I would feel inclined to get Able Learner in favor of Luck of Heroes, but I just love skill points. You get 4 skill points per level, so you can maximise Heal, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and put the third point into the lore skills to raise some of them little higher.

But anyhow, I think you should do fine, or at least well enough.