Dynamic CR scaling on spawns questions

[aaron22]

A duo of a cleric and barbarian has an easy time with trolls. Click and smash. Easy

[Blame The Rogue]

a balanced party could already find themselves in deep trouble in avernus. adding a CR boost to that particular area is maybe not a good idea. if that area's difficulty is now increased, it may not be playable. imo, that is a valid concern

[aaron22]

a balanced party could already find themselves in deep trouble in avernus. adding a CR boost to that particular area is maybe not a good idea. if that area's difficulty is now increased, it may not be playable. imo, that is a valid concern

Be fun to try. Good idea to go in with more preperations.

[mrm3ntalist]

How come people dont like this? Especially after such a short time?

You prefer the static spawns where you know exactly the AC they got, they saves they got the ab they got and plan ahead? That is boring.

This system can be the best mechanic that enhances game play in some time now. Does it need fine tuning? Yes it does.

Its really hard to believe how some prefer the static spawns with static attributes...

[Hoihe]

How come people dont like this? Especially after such a short time?

You prefer the static spawns where you know exactly the AC they got, they saves they got the ab they got and plan ahead? That is boring.

This system can be the best mechanic that enhances game play in some time now. Does it need fine tuning? Yes it does.

Its really hard to believe how some prefer the static spawns with static attributes...

Because this encourages people to play pursue munchkinism even more. Partying is hard af if you are selective about what kind of people you party with (hint, be strongly good/evil. You'll have difficulties finding people at your level range), and people like to do things when there's nobody to interact with - otherwise why log in any longer than it takes to check if there's people to interact with?

Before this, I could go and have fun and be challenged fighting the ogres in troll claws on level 20 Atria. Needed to get to level 20 to do it - something that gets ruined by enemies "keeping up" with me. If I was 4 levels lower, previously I fought orcs as they were safe while still threatening. Now? What would I have done at level 16 - sat and twiddled my thumb at FAI fire hoping someone logs in or the people sitting there unafk? Ooh, there's a person who is also level 16! Wait, they're of murderous/morally dubious behaviour. Why would my character - who enjoys living, risk her life by trusting someone of so obviously differing morals to protect her? So yay - only person I can party with my character ICly suspects of associating with people that want her dead.

Might as well log off and play EVE online or Sea Dogs to Each his own.

[aaron22]

Ok so you go to a place a couple levels lower and feel safe. I see no change in gameplay.

Doesn't seem difficult to grasp to me

[Hoihe]

Yay for a bunch of simple minded ogres somehow, as a single collective, progressing at the same pace as my PC!

Yay for losing a sense of progress of "Hmm, these foes are too tough. I'll go improve and come back" "What the (do-me), these foes improved."


Leave and then hear someone with less ability have an easier time fighting enemies as they fight easier versions. Especially tangible if your character's stats come in bundles and stay that way.

Get spells/feat that grants bonus to AC/AB/dmg. Go fight enemy. Optimal pairing, you only get challenged when you should - 1 vs many, or vs the boss.

You level up!

Your stats remain the same, enemies became stronger. For some absurd reason, despite becoming stronger you became weaker!

Any explanations on that? Clear case of Oblivionitis - the only way for things to feel right is to not level up. Levelling up actually weakens you.



The only ways this system can work and make sense is either of the following, or combination of them:


1) INDIVIDUAL enemies don't get stronger. Instead, rate of spawns is increased. Rather, the size of spawns. This also makes the player feel accomplished rather than cheated - hey, the enemies learn and try to overcome odds by grouping up!

2) This system is disabled UNLESS you are in a party. This also makes sense, somewhat - enemies see a warband and respond in kind. Bonus points that it doesn't make munchkinism mandatory.


The current system makes characters who do not become stronger in a linear progression actually become weaker at a given area from leveling up. Which makes absolutely no sense and is a severe case of Oblivionitis.

[mrm3ntalist]

How come people dont like this? Especially after such a short time?

You prefer the static spawns where you know exactly the AC they got, they saves they got the ab they got and plan ahead? That is boring.

This system can be the best mechanic that enhances game play in some time now. Does it need fine tuning? Yes it does.

Its really hard to believe how some prefer the static spawns with static attributes...

Because this encourages people to play pursue munchkinism even more. Partying is hard af if you are selective about what kind of people you party with (hint, be strongly good/evil. You'll have difficulties finding people at your level range), and people like to do things when there's nobody to interact with - otherwise why log in any longer than it takes to check if there's people to interact with?

You are very selective and critical about others and how they choose to play. Unless you want it to become personal, keep it at check.

Before this, I could go and have fun and be challenged fighting the ogres in troll claws on level 20 Atria. Needed to get to level 20 to do it - something that gets ruined by enemies "keeping up" with me. If I was 4 levels lower, previously I fought orcs as they were safe while still threatening. Now? What would I have done at level 16 - sat and twiddled my thumb at FAI fire hoping someone logs in or the people sitting there unafk? Ooh, there's a person who is also level 16! Wait, they're of murderous/morally dubious behaviour. Why would my character - who enjoys living, risk her life by trusting someone of so obviously differing morals to protect her? So yay - only person I can party with my character ICly suspects of associating with people that want her dead.

Are you saying that you cant find a challenging area for your character? This is 100% wrong. As far as the other players, againt you criticize others about how they play. This system has nothing to do with other peoples behavior.

You also dont understand this system, yet once again you are very critical. If your CR is low, there wont be any additional challenges.

All this complaining about your weak character is for nothing.

Might as well log off and play EVE online or Sea Dogs to Each his own.

Cant help with that. You choose what to do.

[Hoihe]

How come people dont like this? Especially after such a short time?

You prefer the static spawns where you know exactly the AC they got, they saves they got the ab they got and plan ahead? That is boring.

This system can be the best mechanic that enhances game play in some time now. Does it need fine tuning? Yes it does.

Its really hard to believe how some prefer the static spawns with static attributes...

Because this encourages people to play pursue munchkinism even more. Partying is hard af if you are selective about what kind of people you party with (hint, be strongly good/evil. You'll have difficulties finding people at your level range), and people like to do things when there's nobody to interact with - otherwise why log in any longer than it takes to check if there's people to interact with?

You are very selective and critical about others and how they choose to play. Unless you want it to become personal, keep it at check.

Before this, I could go and have fun and be challenged fighting the ogres in troll claws on level 20 Atria. Needed to get to level 20 to do it - something that gets ruined by enemies "keeping up" with me. If I was 4 levels lower, previously I fought orcs as they were safe while still threatening. Now? What would I have done at level 16 - sat and twiddled my thumb at FAI fire hoping someone logs in or the people sitting there unafk? Ooh, there's a person who is also level 16! Wait, they're of murderous/morally dubious behaviour. Why would my character - who enjoys living, risk her life by trusting someone of so obviously differing morals to protect her? So yay - only person I can party with my character ICly suspects of associating with people that want her dead.

Are you saying that you cant find a challenging area for your character? This is 100% wrong. As far as the other players, againt you criticize others about how they play. This system has nothing to do with other peoples behavior.

You also dont understand this system, yet once again you are very critical. If your CR is low, there wont be any additional challenges.

All this complaining about your weak character is for nothing.

Might as well log off and play EVE online or Sea Dogs to Each his own.

Cant help with that. You choose what to do.

Let's say my character's level is X. They are of Y class combination that gets Z at level X.

They go to an area where the CR is exactly X and they are challenged, but not as if it was an end-game content. Just enough so they can't drop their guard.

Character gets to level x + 1. Area also scales, as the character is now above the CR! However, the player won't get another Z scale steroid until level X + 5.

So our character stays at the area, and rather than feeling like they are getting stronger, as they move from X to X + 5, they actually feel like they are growing weaker.

People playing non-linear power progression understand the fact they'll plateau out often. They even understand that after a certain point, they will need to fight new enemies they are not yet ready for.

However, non-linear power progression always feels increasing, even if at times due to the plateau they are forced to take on challenges they are power-wise not supposed to.


What this system does is make the player feel like their power progression is actually negative. They fight the same enemies in the same area - yet they are not as effective in combat as they were!

So they have to ask "Why even bother leveling up? Rather than feeling more accomplished, powerful, I feel weaker."




Another big issue with this change - it's mandatory, not optional.

Having content in a game you can't solo is a good thing - gives you reason to take the extra measures.

Having all content be balanced towards the cream of the crop? Terrible idea.

By making this system only activate in a party, you make it optional.

By making it activate solo, you make it mandatory.

Before making high-end content, make sure everyone can have fun. This doesn't do that.

[aaron22]

Are you playing the same game as me?

[V'rass]

Im liking the new system so far... but making it optional might be wise for various reasons.

[AC81]

If your character is weak Hoihe, just go to a zone more than 4 levels below your CR. Easy, I really don't see a problem. This system adds variety, that's always a good thing.

[Tsidkenu]

...making it optional might be wise for various reasons.

I'd like to point out that Sigil has a similar system with 4 separate tiers of difficulty (Easy, Normal, Hard, Extreme) which is toggled manually from the DMFI toolbar. All players in a party must set the same difficulty tier when they enter an area otherwise it defaults to Normal, that is, no change to the areas regular CR/spawns. Something similar should not be too hard to implement on BG if folks want to choose if they want it or not.

[Babuguuscooties]

My thoughts: I like the idea of dynamic spawns, provided it doesn't punish low levels just to add some excitement for us high levels. After-all, I'm considering new players that may try the server or even the game for the first time. I don't doubt the scripters and all those involved in balancing these changes have already thought of this, but that's where my concern lies primarily.

To Hoihe in particular, and I'm sorry I didn't quote this but you said something akin to not wanting skyrimitis here.

I understand what you mean. Personally, I'm not a fan of Elder Scrolls games (though its mainly bc I find their world and lore to be boring).

However, your point was that people wanted to feel strong! I get that when I consider the perspective of a higher level character who has the level (IE epic level 21+) but not the powerbuild to "back it up".

However, ultimately I thought in this server our CR was essentially only half of what it is in terms of how our strength measures up to lore characters like Khelben Blackstaff etc.

If that's the case then 15 is roughly the strongest character in the server. Maybe my math is off here, or I'm simply mistaken but if not then I think dynamic spawns help give the higher level players a bit more to remind them that they aren't Elminster.

Also, that they shouldn't necessarily prance around claiming to kill frost giants with their eyes closed (Not an actual example lol) because they might end up dying to an Orc Mystic after all that bragging

[NeOmega]

wow. Something to offset the horrible decision to allow level 1's decked out in elite gear.

I am almost tempted to re-install.

That and Jand's wonderful gem collection has uses for the new planar binding system.