Building the Perfect Illusionist

[Steve]

How would you do it?

It would seem that a Wizard-base is going to the most powerful mechanically. But I like the idea of a Sorcerer-base more, considering how the Charisma ability guides role-play...and a BIG Charisma is always fun (not to mention good for Social Skills).

[Valefort]

Gnome, sorc/ dragon disciple/ archmage, toss ASOC in if you prefer.

[Steve]

Hmmm...this dragon disciple may be a thing....

[chad878262]

I played a W26/SD4 Illusionist. Opposition school was Evocation... All subtlety! I wanted to go for Shadow Adept, but the RP was not aligned with Shar so application denied... It was fun, but I still suck at wizards so eventually stopped playing and RCR'd that PC. The idea I had was that he was heavily invested in Sleight of Hand and he'd go around performing magic tricks using that, never really showing his 'real spells', but kinda hard to RP a magic show "Pick a card, any card!"

If I was to go Sorcerer I would almost certainly aim for Shadow Adept for the extra DC's, but I suppose Archmage and/or Blood Magus could also work. HiPS Sorceror is exceedingly difficult, since they need max CHA for DC's and would either need 19 DEX, or take 8 levels of Assassin hurting their DC. Could theoretically go S6/SA10/A8/BM6. CL would be 25 base (-8 Assassin, -1 BM, +4 PSC), but for Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy you gain +3 from Shadow Adept and using Blood Seeking spell and Blood Component is +3 as well, making CL 31 for those schools (28 for other schools and you have penalties to Transmutation and Evocation). This would avoid the DEX requirement for Shadow Dancer, but has a lot of draw backs to it. Shadow Adept also helps with skill points since Hide is a class skill, but Move Silently and Tumble are not so you won't qualify for Assassin until fairly late (still earlier than Shadow Dancer). Another option would be S7/PM10/SA10/SD3. CL would be 27, 30 for Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy.

Now...if you don't want a HiPS mage it becomes far easier (I just think it mixes really well with Illusionist, especially since it also opens up interesting skills to mix with the specialty such as disguise, escape artist and sleight of hand). I would still want Shadow Adept from a purely mechanical perspective and would likely try to go S6/SA10/BM10/AM4. However, assuming you don't want that RP you could also make a decent Sorc Illusionist out of S6/AS10/AM8/X6 (where X could be 4 more levels of Sorc, 2 AM or BM6 or whatever you want). Arcane Scholar would allow you to use empower/maximize/quicken on your illusion spells if you wanted. Since Illusion has save or lose spells at 2, 4, 6, 8 and 9 Enhanced Metamagic - Empower is your friend (along side Extend spell). This allows you to extend blindness in level 3 slots, empower phantasmal killer in level 5 slots, extend solipsism in level 7 slots. Thus you have save or lose spells at every spell level, but 1.

Even though I suck at DC casters and casters in general Illusion is my favorite school...

I don't personally care for Dragon Disciple, but I can't argue that it isn't a strong option as well.

[Steve]

Thanks guys, for some useful suggestions.

I'm thinking about the best way to go about the mechanical efficiency—considering how Illusion spells have a dual save—and getting enough Skills to put to use in the RP.

I think Shadowdancer has a lot to offer then, seeing as HiPS is so very useful, and some skills open up. Evasion is nice too.

And I think ASoC does provide good spell use options, spread among the levels, like Chad pointed out.

ArchMage would allow boosting the CL to 32, for the DC. Some spell like abilities are also useful.

Shadow Adept is great to consider, but the RP is strict, and I've not been able to justify it yet, in a Character idea.

Dragon Disciple has many perks, though RPing the "looks all dragonly like" is a tough sell. I'm afraid my scalely gnome would be confused with a Kobold!! Lol.

So yeah, unexciting as it may seem, a caster 6 / ASOC 10 / ArchMage 10 / Shadowdancer 4 is were I'm at, at the moment.

[chad878262]

Just remember that means you need Empower Spell, SF:Concentration, SF:Spellcraft, Spell Focus: Illusion, one other Spell Focus feat, Dodge and Mobility. Unless you're human or strongheart you have no feats left for Prodigy. Strongheart also gets +2 DEX to help a bit with qualification for ShadowDancer, though Drow, Tiefling and Air Genasi are obviously best. So it looks like you will either be a Halfling, or you'll be down 1 DC. In either case you'll have to take Greater Spell Focus/Epic Spell Focus in Epics, leaving you with 3 Great INT's (or 2+epic spell, but there are no epic illusions, sadly). On top of all of this you need 15 Spellcarft, 15 Lore: Arcana, 10 Hide, 8 Move Silently and 8 Tumble. That's 30 skill points plus 26 cross-class skill points... So 82 Skill points needed and you only get 2/level.

This is why Wizards work better for this type of build... More INT for Skill Points and bonus feats.

[Rinzler]

Svirfneblin

[Hawke]

You aren't going to have DC high enough if you take Shadowdancer.

You could do it if you had a +2 Dex race, but you will then have two choices...

Go 17 pts Dex to get to 19, and 18 charisma...Then you will have 8 str, con, int, etc. Which makes your life harder than it needs to be. Which makes things even worse as a small race.

Or you could go 16 pts in dex with a +2 dex race, and you can get 10 con, and maybe 9 str.

Pick a different race without dex, and it gets worse.

That means you are losing 1-3 DC depending on which route you are going.

The skill requirement is ridiculous, especially for a sorcerer (low skill point class).

This means that you will not be able to HIPS effectively, and/or do spellcraft checks or concentration checks as your class is a 2 skill point / level. And your int would have to be a 14 minimum to have your 4 skills be maxed out until you hit level 18. But if you are going AM, you need to have Lore skilled up as well.

So all in all, it's a very challenging build to get up and running, and to have any chance of a decent DC you need to figure out what you really want to do.

Wizard and SD is far more feasible because of the skill points... but still have other problems with feats.

[Steve]

@chad: yeah, this is why I'm usually not going Sorcerer because for Skill points, one is sol.

@Rinz: already have a Svirf, but yeah, gotta love those Svirfs! But a Svirf does not make a good Sorcerer, either!

@Hawke: yup. Sorcerer and SD are a tough match. I've tried to build up something before that was strong, but it only gets to Decent level. Illusion spells really need to be backed by stellar DCs, else might as well not play it at all.

[mrm3ntalist]

I already made a DC sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. It is very strong, but like you mentioned before i didnt focus on just illusion spells. The dual saves might be alright for a wizard but not for a sorcerer. Instead i selected the best DC spell of any schools and specialized in all of them.

My build is a Sorc6/HarperMage5/Archmage9/DD10.

No empower, no damaging spells, Spell focus Transmutation and Necromancy. The use the helmet with Spell focus illusion and enchantment. Pick spells that lower saves ( enervation, the clouds that lower will ) and buffing spells (Bulls, bears, IMA, GMW, spider skin ). Then at least a save or die spell for every level ( phantasmal kill , baleful poly morph, Flest to stone, Flesh to stone, finger, Solipsism, Mass blindness and wails. A couple of summoning spells ( Planar All Greater and dominate monster. Then have Undeath to death and sunburst to deal with undead. High Arcana should be 2 spell power and 2 SLAs ( shadow shield being a must due to the many good spells on that level while premonition is a very good second choice )

I have been playing this for a week and it is a very efficient build. Very high AC with decent DCs and a lot damage over time through summons. If you want to specialize more on illusion the same logic applies, only focus more on illusion spells which can be more difficult.

[Hawke]

My build is a Sorc6/HarperMage5/Archmage9/DD10.

I was thinking about doing something very similar to this build as well.

Glad to hear it is working out.

[Zahlfire]

How well would a S6/SA10/ASoC10/BM4 work? Or would ASoC8 and BM6 be better?

[chad878262]

How well would a S6/SA10/ASoC10/BM4 work? Or would ASoC8 and BM6 be better?

Notice BM5 loses 1 caster level making PSC important, but it would allow a bit higher caster level.

BM4 version gets CL 34 for illusion, enchantment and necromancy. BM6 could hit 36 netting +1 DC, so if you have a feat to spare it might be worth it. Between all the class requirements, spell focus, greater spell focus and prodigy practiced spell caster may not be possible without moving a non epic feat to epic level which means losing a great INT, epic spell focus or epic spell so a lot to consider. I'd recommend building out in excel so you can see how the build ends up feat wise.

Of course you could go without PSC, but then you're ast cl29 when not using blood component in non -SA schools. Even lower for transmutation and evocation.

[Lockonnow]

could it be nice if we have a feat that give the archmage prc one extre spell power when you party with other archmage and you lose a spell slots couse you have pick that feat ?

[Zahlfire]

Thanks for the advice Chad. I'm building it out in JEGS and mapping it out via Google Spreadsheet while I do it. Do you know the feat number for the Shadow Adept token?