Barbarian build , Thundering rage worth it ?

[Mutko1]

I'm really torn between my last epic feat choice. So i've got all the important feats except blind fight which i replace by 3/day blindsight helm from hell shop, I miss Knockdown which would be quite decent for barbarian with 34STR while raging. I tried northlander hewing in test module and it doesn't impress at all. Considering that my toon uses vampiric weapon and every attack counts for that and also the extra attack from whirlwind frenzy rage mode isn't added to northlander so it's a no go. Not to speak that critical hits aren't calculated properly in northlander so they hardly make any difference from normal hits.
So i was wondering between Knockdown/ Fast Regen / Armor Skin/ Thundering Rage.
Knockdown is always usefull especially PvP wise. Fast regen is like ... meh... as it's armor skin but i like raw power lol.
As for thundering rage... Does it only add 2d6 damage on critical hit ? Is that damage multiplied by the critical threat of the weapon ?
In feat description is 2d6 on x2 weapon , 4d6 on x3 and 6d6 on x4. And that damage isn't multiplied by the critical threat right ?
At the moment the character is primary useing a falchion so with avg of 35dmg per hit , 2d6 on critical wouldn't make too much difference i think.
What would you guys advice ?

[chad878262]

Thundering Rage is pretty Meh... Obviously can be nice on a Scythe or a Great Axe for 6d6 / 4d6, but less amazing on a x2 weapons. (2d6=~7 dmg per crit). How's your AC in and out of Rage? You mentioned you have a vampiric weapon so sounds like you're doing find regarding keeping your HP pool full so fast regen is likely unnecessary. Knockdown is ok, but without IKD it'll likely not work against other melee's in many cases. Note that Blindsight is more like See Invisibility than it is Blindfight. Thus it doesn't replace the feat, so if you want to get that extra chance to actually hit when concealment causes you to miss you would want blindfight.

I'm assuming you already have Epic DR, Epic Rage, and Expose Weakness (if not those are your top picks).

[Mutko1]

Thundering Rage is pretty Meh... Obviously can be nice on a Scythe or a Great Axe for 6d6 / 4d6, but less amazing on a x2 weapons. (2d6=~7 dmg per crit). How's your AC in and out of Rage? You mentioned you have a vampiric weapon so sounds like you're doing find regarding keeping your HP pool full so fast regen is likely unnecessary. Knockdown is ok, but without IKD it'll likely not work against other melee's in many cases. Note that Blindsight is more like See Invisibility than it is Blindfight. Thus it doesn't replace the feat, so if you want to get that extra chance to actually hit when concealment causes you to miss you would want blindfight.

I'm assuming you already have Epic DR, Epic Rage, and Expose Weakness (if not those are your top picks).

I believe blindsight actually works exactly like Blind-Fight feat ? I've been left with the impression that when i fight the green dragon with my thaumaturge if i don't buff myself and both summons with blindsight i can barely take half of it's HP down and have to run away after that cuz buffs expire lol . With Blindsight buffed on everyone i manage to kill the bugger and he has 50% concealment. SO i believe the spell actually gives you a re-roll against concealment.
The AC in rage is 54 without any self supporting buffs . Out of rage is as bad as like 40 but i don't consider doing any fights out of rage lol
As for the mentioned feats yes i do have all these. AC is pretty OP just like the usualy barbarian lol and DR16 so with vampiric weapon +2 he's doing fine keeping the HP pool up.
And since i noticed that blindsight helps just fine against those concealed enemies i decided that it's not really worth spending a feat for it and especially an epic one. Epic STR/CON would make no difference at all except if i don't find a +4 CON item which i doubt i will .
So that leaves... Knockdown/Fast Regen... Thundering rage as you say... 7dmg average on critical only... naah i'll pass on that. Maybe go for Armor skin for that extra +1 AC ? Any other suggestions ? He's got steadfast determination too so that's no problem.

[chad878262]

Very strange, it is not supposed to give any benefit against concealment...

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Blindsight

Description

The target can see invisible creatures (as the see invisibility spell) and suffers no penalties for fighting or acting in total darkness.

Gameplay Notes

This spell allows the target to see through magical Darkness and Invisibility. It does not grant the target any bonuses against concealment or natural stealth.

This has the effects of the old NWN1 spell Ultravision, and See Invisibility rolled into one. The darkness in the spell description specifically refers to the Darkness spell.

Basically it outclasses See Invisibility. The differences are:
See Invisibility: Spell School: Divination
Levels: Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 2.

Blind Sight: Spell School: Transmutation
Levels: Cleric 3, Druid 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 2.


Of course, if you are not a Wizard or Sorcerer, you get no choice in the matter.

You must use this with Darkness if you cast Darkness on yourself, or if you cast it on a target you need to see, otherwise you cannot cast further spells on the target (since most require line of sight).

It should be noted that blind fight gives a second roll for misses on concealment effects which cannot be replaced by any spell. Note that Darkness provides concealment effects by default to those under its effect.

It is also the best counter against any spell which provides Invisibility, causing creatures to appear as if they were not invisible.

[Mutko1]

Very strange, it is not supposed to give any benefit against concealment...

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Blindsight

Description

The target can see invisible creatures (as the see invisibility spell) and suffers no penalties for fighting or acting in total darkness.

Gameplay Notes

This spell allows the target to see through magical Darkness and Invisibility. It does not grant the target any bonuses against concealment or natural stealth.

This has the effects of the old NWN1 spell Ultravision, and See Invisibility rolled into one. The darkness in the spell description specifically refers to the Darkness spell.

Basically it outclasses See Invisibility. The differences are:
See Invisibility: Spell School: Divination
Levels: Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 2.

Blind Sight: Spell School: Transmutation
Levels: Cleric 3, Druid 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 2.


Of course, if you are not a Wizard or Sorcerer, you get no choice in the matter.

You must use this with Darkness if you cast Darkness on yourself, or if you cast it on a target you need to see, otherwise you cannot cast further spells on the target (since most require line of sight).

It should be noted that blind fight gives a second roll for misses on concealment effects which cannot be replaced by any spell. Note that Darkness provides concealment effects by default to those under its effect.

It is also the best counter against any spell which provides Invisibility, causing creatures to appear as if they were not invisible.

Well from my experience i feel like it does give benefit against concealed enemies.
Maybe the concealment effect on these creatures is such that the spell would benefit against but it wouldn't benefit against displacement & Improved invisibility spells. I'm not sure but atleast in PvE i've always found it that i hit concealed enemies 2x more often. The bear mini boss in Xvart village as well as the epic green dragon boss in forest of wyrms. The blindsight there makes significant difference.

Edit: You're the QC ,chad. Maybe you can just give it a quick test when you have time and see if it actually works. Try it against the green dragon .

[chad878262]

Any data I could collect would be no different than your own... someone would have to look at the script/ code associated to the spell.

[Sun Wukong]

I tried northlander hewing in test module and it doesn't impress at all. Considering that my toon uses vampiric weapon and every attack counts for that and also the extra attack from whirlwind frenzy rage mode isn't added to northlander so it's a no go. Not to speak that critical hits aren't calculated properly in northlander so they hardly make any difference from normal hits.

Whirlwind Frenzy does give an extra attack while you are still leveling towards BAB of 26. For example at BAB of 6, you get two attacks instead of just one. At BAB of 16, you get three attacks instead of just two. At BAB of 21, you get four attacks instead of just three.

And anyhow, to make most out of Northlander Hewing you need to go for as high base weapon damage dice as possible, 1d12 for example. Then you should be looking for a weapon with some extra physical damage dice. Will of the Uthgard, sold in the Wide, is a +4, Keen Warmace with +1d4 extra damage. Thus with this weapon your 34 strength barbarian could be doing: 12 + 4 + 4 + 18 + 12 = 50 damage per hit.

If you go for Improved Power Attack you will be doing about: 6.5~ + 4 + 2.5~ + 18 + 12 = 43~ damage per hit. You could argue that Improved Power Attack does more damage over all, especially on critical hits, but you will have -4 to your AB and enemy spell casters will have a better chance to make their concentration checks. Your damage roll might be as low as 36, and the caster might already have some damage reduction up.

Now, ever since Northlander Hewing was added, I have not gone for Power Attack unless I need it for something like Divine Might or a PRC. I turn it on against spell casters, I turn it off against regular mobs, and I have gone for high strength builds that can do something like 60+ damage per hit if this mode is active. A single hit and that enemy spellcaster has to make a concentration skill check with a DC of ['10' + '60+' + 'spell level'].

And anyhow, the biggest perk of Northlander Hewing is that you can use it with any weapon you find. For example my Cavalier/Dragonslayer makes use of a 'Terrance Fell Axe', it is a +2 Handaxe (1d6) that comes with +1d4 extra damage. This character of mine will end up doing 39+ damage per hit with it. (I really wouldn't want to be an evil dragon against that halfling. )

Knockdown is always usefull especially PvP wise. Fast regen is like ... meh... as it's armor skin but i like raw power lol.

Well, all these feats are kind of meh. Knockdown could be handy against low strength opponents, but Barbarians are pretty common these days so you will want to get that Improved Knockdown. Fast Healing I is a nice alternative for a regeneration cloak as it lets you use that Cloak of Shimmering for its 32 spell resistance, but it doesn't really make that much of an impact at level 30. Armor Skin is +1 AC, so potentially you become +5% harder to hit.

As for thundering rage... Does it only add 2d6 damage on critical hit ? Is that damage multiplied by the critical threat of the weapon ?

I think Thundering Rage does 1d8 sonic damage on a critical hit with a x2 weapon, 2d8 on a x3 weapon, and 3d8 on a x4 weapon, etc. Are you perhaps thinking about Overwhelming Critical? Both of these feats are a bit lackluster in away, they have high requirements and little impact. But if you have a feat to spare and literally nothing else to spend it on, you could go for it on flavor alone.

In feat description is 2d6 on x2 weapon , 4d6 on x3 and 6d6 on x4. And that damage isn't multiplied by the critical threat right ?

The Overwhelming Critical notes on the wiki does list that it does not multiply, and that it does not stack with a massive critical hit property on your weapon. Actually, I have to reconsider my previous statement, never take the Overwhelming Critical feat.

At the moment the character is primary useing a falchion so with avg of 35dmg per hit , 2d6 on critical wouldn't make too much difference i think.
What would you guys advice ?

Falchion is one of the bread and butter weapons for Rogue/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Masters, now we have some new winds blowing and other builds to consider, but I just feel that it is going to be difficult to acquire a decent enough Falchion. If you already have a nice one, keep using it. If not... There is that lovely Warmace.

And I would get the Blindfight feat, helms with spells can be dispelled.

[Kalgain]

What is the current plan with Thundering Rage?

Feat desccription is 2d6 massive critical physical damage, no mention of deafened.

Wiki says 1d8 sonic damage + 50% chance for deafened .

Testing in jegs is physical damage (dont know how to test deafened)

This seems to me like this is some work in progress.

[Kalgain]

Assuming the Wiki description is correct.

Does the deafness effect stack?

Like it does for greater shout?

[chad878262]

I am unaware of any changes to vanilla Thundering Rage besides the lower qualification requirements. That said Valefort updated the wiki page so he would have to respond as to if he made any changes to the feat in game.

[Calodan]

Being as Northlander Hewing is screwy with Critical attacks it also makes Thundering rage less appealing in that sense. There is very little difference in the amount of damage you do with it with a great axe while using northlander hewing and thundering rage triggers.

[Kalgain]

I totally agree. Northlander Hewing is the way to go, there are few things that can match it on a high strength build. If the critical hit bug gets fixed, then it would not make sense to go another route.

If Northlander Hewing also maximises the bonus damage from Thundering Rage (if it is the phys dmg variant), imagine the damage using a Scythe or a Falchion (would be roughly 4 on average over all hits, so equal to two weapon specs).