Newbies Crossbow/Rapier Rogue Build

[Random Access Life]

Hey everyone. I'm a fairly new player who doesn't have a lot of system mastery when it comes to NWN2 or 3.5 edition so I thought I would ask for advice.

My character concept is an 'adventurer rogue.' Basically someone who makes her living fulfilling the role of a rogue in an adventuring party. She can sneak ahead and scout, find and disarm traps and unlock doors and in combat she can deal damage from the back lines with a crossbow or fight with a rapier.

The skills part I haven't had any trouble with but I thought I would ask if a 'switch hitter' who can fight with a crossbow or a rapier is viable? Also, what about the parry skill? It fits my concept but I would have to sacrifice another skill to make it work so I don't want to invest in parry unless it will pay off at the higher levels.

Is pure rogue viable for this character concept? I don't know a lot about building NWN2 characters so my original thought was to just be a pure rogue but I don't know if that would work?

All advice welcome

[chad878262]

The skills part I haven't had any trouble with but I thought I would ask if a 'switch hitter' who can fight with a crossbow or a rapier is viable? Also, what about the parry skill? It fits my concept but I would have to sacrifice another skill to make it work so I don't want to invest in parry unless it will pay off at the higher levels.

Short answer is yes and no. yes as in it's viable in a party since just about anything is viable in a party. No because a Rogue is predicated on landing sneak attacks which can land with ranged or melee weapons, but require either HiPS or flanking. In either case you want as many APR as you can get. Crossbows cap out at 4 APR, meaning only 2 sneak attacks per round. Meanwhile a Longbow (or short bow) will get 3 sneak attacks using Improved Rapid Shot and more with Manyshot. By the same token, attacking with one weapon (a rapier in this case) will only allow 2 sneak attacks when coming out of stealth while going for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting will grant you 4. Thus to be a solid Rogue combatant you want to either focus on ranged or melee and get the 3/4 feats required to be strong in one or the other (Rapid Shot/IRS/Many shot or Two Weapon Fighting/ITWF/GTWF/PTWF).

Crossbow Sniper feats can make use of a crossbow quite viable on this server, but for a 'pure' or mostly pure rogue you really want to maximize the number of sneak attacks you get. Parry doesn't really work for you since it requires being attacked and as a rogue your goal should be to not get attacked.

Is pure rogue viable for this character concept? I don't know a lot about building NWN2 characters so my original thought was to just be a pure rogue but I don't know if that would work?

The addition of "Hide in the Shadows" granted free at Rogue 7 and improving up to R21 makes a pure rogue quite viable. However, it does have limitations that make gaining HiPS from either Assassin 8 or Shadow Dancer more desirable. In a party you will be fine as a pure rogue, but solo will require a LOT of practice and patience!

Welcome to the server and happy gaming!

[Valefort]

Most PCs tend to specialize heavily either in ranged or melee. That said your idea, although not super powerful, is completely playable. The main problem you'll face is the number of feats you need and a way to deliver sneak attacks.

The usual way to deliver sneak attacks is to .. sneak ! And thus to get a PRC giving HiPS, either Shadowdancer or Assassin. Assassin is the best choice mechanically here but you might not like the associated RP.

Whatever you choose, Assassin or shadowdancer you'll need a bunch of feats : weapon finesse, weapon focus crossbow, Crossbow sniper, Crossbow sniper master, then point blank shot and rapid shot in order to get Manyshot. That's too many feats if you don't tkae fighter levels

And you need dodge and mobility if you go shadowdancer.

So with all that in mind: http://nwn2db.com/build/?278283

That can switch between crossbow and rapier, preferably with a shield.

[chad878262]

This will require you obtain a crossbow with rapid reload feat. Otherwise you are only getting 1 sneak attack or is stealth.

[Thorsson]

The others skipped around it, but I'll say it straight: Rogue & Crossbow is a no go area. It's not possible to make it work well. In fact Rogue and ranged attack doesn't go well at all, because sneak attacks don't manyshot.

If you splash Rogue you can go loads of routes, but if you want to be mostly rogue then anything other than PTWF is effectively nerfed.

[Random Access Life]

The others skipped around it, but I'll say it straight: Rogue & Crossbow is a no go area. It's not possible to make it work well. In fact Rogue and ranged attack doesn't go well at all, because sneak attacks don't manyshot.

If you splash Rogue you can go loads of routes, but if you want to be mostly rogue then anything other than PTWF is effectively nerfed.

I appreciate the brutal honesty.

Most PCs tend to specialize heavily either in ranged or melee. That said your idea, although not super powerful, is completely playable. The main problem you'll face is the number of feats you need and a way to deliver sneak attacks.

The usual way to deliver sneak attacks is to .. sneak ! And thus to get a PRC giving HiPS, either Shadowdancer or Assassin. Assassin is the best choice mechanically here but you might not like the associated RP.

Kerri is just at the beginning of her career, there is plenty of time for her to go toward the darkside lol. She could become an assassin.

Short answer is yes and no. yes as in it's viable in a party since just about anything is viable in a party. No because a Rogue is predicated on landing sneak attacks which can land with ranged or melee weapons, but require either HiPS or flanking. In either case you want as many APR as you can get. Crossbows cap out at 4 APR, meaning only 2 sneak attacks per round. Meanwhile a Longbow (or short bow) will get 3 sneak attacks using Improved Rapid Shot and more with Manyshot. By the same token, attacking with one weapon (a rapier in this case) will only allow 2 sneak attacks when coming out of stealth while going for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting will grant you 4. Thus to be a solid Rogue combatant you want to either focus on ranged or melee and get the 3/4 feats required to be strong in one or the other (Rapid Shot/IRS/Many shot or Two Weapon Fighting/ITWF/GTWF/PTWF).

Ahh, I see. This makes sense to me. Well, I suppose I will have to give up my crossbow dreams lol. A longbow/shortbow it is!

I think I will try to build for a bow but squeeze in Weapon Finesse for those cases when she's forced to fight with a rapier and for roleplay reasons.

[dedude]

Don't forget to prioritize the playstyle you actually prefer for the character. There may be many more powerful builds, but if you really like the concept of a crossbow wielding rogue, then that is probably what you would most enjoy to actually play. A fighter/rogue mix can go in a lot of different directions with all the feats you can get from fighter.

[Thorsson]

Don't forget to prioritize the playstyle you actually prefer for the character. There may be many more powerful builds, but if you really like the concept of a crossbow wielding rogue, then that is probably what you would most enjoy to actually play. A fighter/rogue mix can go in a lot of different directions with all the feats you can get from fighter.

I'm going to respectfully beg to differ. What you have in your mind is not a Fighter/Rogue, but a character who can do certain things: maybe open locks, sneak around and fire three crossbow bolts through the eye of a needle in a couple of seconds.

The build is merely a mechanical means of realising that "dream" character. There is absolutely no need to end up with something inferior - unless you wish to build certain flaws in, as part of your character.

The fact is that, due to the mechanics of how the game works, crossbows don't work very well for Fighter/Rogues. The best Crossbowers are Bards, with Fighter/Assassin mixes also working well. Also, if you wish to mix ranged and melee then crossbow is not a good ranged weapon as it requires dedication to make it work well.

These are mechanical facts and decisions about the character should be made with these in mind, because, I repeat, what we're all trying to make is a hero that fits our concept and if it mechanically fails then it automatically doesn't fit the concept.

[AC81]

Halfling, Swash12/As8/WStalk7/Rogue3. Gets 27BAB, 8d6 sneak with death attack that doubles up on manyshot. Gets camoflage, swift tracker and a bit of extra AC from Wilderness Stalker. Is able to disarm and open all traps and locks. Gets free epic precision from Swashbuckler plus free weapon finess and luck of heroes. When the enemy closes in switch from sling to shortsword/shield to put your high intelligence to use for double intelligence to damage, combined with expose weakness. Best thing is, with 27 BAB + Rapid shot, you get 3 attacks out of stealth - all three being your manyshot - meaning the victim must make 6 saves vs paralysis if you hit all three times!

Um yeah - not a crossbow build. Uses Sling + Shortsword. Shield optional.

[Tuck]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?264637

This one is fun and works well

Empty feat is for crossbow sniper master

[Thorsson]

A couple of points if I may:

1. You have to be withing 30' to land a sneak attack, and that includes death attack, so this should be borne in mind. You've not got the possibility of landing a long range sneak attack and then HiPSing before they close.

2. If you have PTWF you have twice as many attacks and that means twice as many chances to land death attacks. Equally if you have all the necessary archery feats: rapid reload - which can come from an item - rapid shot, manyshot, PLUS haste, you can get off 2 manyshots in the first flurry*, equivalent to 4 attacks.

With regard to Tuck's build it doesn't have any of the archery feats - no rapid shot, no manyshot - so you will only get off one shot, unlike a dedicated sniper who would effectively get off 4. I really wouldn't recommend this unless you were desperate for xbow and sword. Equally when using a sword, no PTWF means it only lands half the damage. So we have a character who does two things badly; unless that's your idea of a hero then I would stay clear. Sorry, Tuck.

* How the game works is that your attacks are split into 3 flurries - only the first flurry comes from hiding and the others have little chance to hit and will not normally do sneak damage.