there needs to be high level sneak maps, (mid level even)

[AC81]

And yet sneaks have many builds that are hard-counters to them, some don't even need to see the sneak. Do players of sneak builds have a claim to complain about those builds? Should we nerf those builds because they nullify a playstyle completely?
It's simple, you want to be a high level spotter, you invest and you make sacrifices in other areas. Sneaks already have many IC and OOC burdens, don't turn this into an anti HiPS/sneak thread people.

That being said, I'd welcome more stealthed NPCs but the AI really knows how to abuse HiPS, so it maybe isn't the best idea. Possibly mobs that begin stealthed and can't go back into hiding. Or mobs that utilise Feint, now that would be nasty.

[chad878262]

Well, impossible for many builds is a part of balance... if you want decent detection you give up something else. However, want really advocating for anything here, just saying simply That getting spot and/ or listen is no more difficult then stealth.

Decent doesn't really cut it. It's max or nothing against a stealth PC. Also stealth works against everything and has bonuses like HiPS, detection only works against stealth so it's not a fair trade to begin with.

Spot works against feint and disguise too. A sneak also has to mac two skills while detector only needs to focus on one. Have you played a sneak character? Stealth does not work on everything, though it can work most places of you dedicate gear to hitting certain thresholds.

This is getting very off topic and stealth vs detection has been discussed to death. However, if you'd like me to point you to past threads or explain how and why stealth and detection mechanics are built as they are feel free to send a pm.

Valefort already noted early on that the message of more sneak enemies has been heard.

[NeOmega]

benefits/tradeoffs are totally different though. If a dungeon were to have mobs that hipsed in and out every five seconds getting death attacks constantly and being all but impossible to target with spells then I am sorry but no. I would not enjoy it at all. If you would that is fine but I really do hope our devs spend time elsewhere first.

it would give fighters the same feeling rogues and sneaks get when they go to fields of the dead; their backstab is pointless, they usually use bladed weapons, and skeleton mages destroy them.

but i dont want sneak npcs that hips every 5 seconds either. maybe a special hips for enemies that requires a 30 second cool down. i think that would be thrilling for any build to fight.

i also kind of imagine hipser enemies as bosses.

[NeOmega]

Decent doesn't really cut it. It's max or nothing against a stealth PC. Also stealth works against everything and has bonuses like HiPS, detection only works against stealth so it's not a fair trade to begin with.

it only feels that way because most stealth player invest heavily and wholeheartedly into stealth. while other people are getting flaming swords and armor with +20 hp, sneakers are getting blades and gear with hide and MS. not only that some even take the stealthy feat and the skill focus feats for hide and move silently. thats three feats dedicated to hide move silently while others are investing in armor optimization and improved weapon criticals, etc.

but i know some ranger pcs have invested heavily in spot and listen to counter sneaks.

the whole spot and sneak dynamic is like an underground conflict of extremes. sneak is not supposed to be countered by those who only half-heartedly invest in it. those who only half heartedly invest in spotting should only be ableto catch those who only half heartedly nvest in stealth.

but for sneakers, investing heavily in stealth is powerful and useful because it works against mobs. for those who want to invest in detection heavily... ..well, cool, i guess... maybe good for the odd rp role and the odd PvP encounter... ...other than that, you wasted your skill points and feats... ..because there are hardly any sneaks enemies. And yet i would think there are many builds, that for reason of character, would want to have high detection skills, especially the guardian types.

[Laughingman]

benefits/tradeoffs are totally different though. If a dungeon were to have mobs that hipsed in and out every five seconds getting death attacks constantly and being all but impossible to target with spells then I am sorry but no. I would not enjoy it at all. If you would that is fine but I really do hope our devs spend time elsewhere first.

it would give fighters the same feeling rogues and sneaks get when they go to fields of the dead; their backstab is pointless, they usually use bladed weapons, and skeleton mages destroy them.

They can simply purchase light blunt weapons. Refusal to switch from kukris to light hammers is their own fault. Just like if a frost mage refused to use non ice spells there. The point being it is a simple workaround and doesn't make other builds worthless. You cant merely switch out one or two items and suddenly be able to counter HiPSing monsters. It is something you have to plan for and dedicate a significant part of your build towards.

[Valefort]

We're getting sidetracked, there is 0 counter to HiPSing monsters, none. They HiPS and attack instantly, even if they have 0 hide and you 100 spot you'll still be flat-footed because detection is not instant. Monsters who spawn stealthed will be added with adequate hde/ms scores, nothing PC-like.

[NeOmega]

They can simply purchase light blunt weapons. Refusal to switch from kukris to light hammers is their own fault. Just like if a frost mage refused to use non ice spells there. The point being it is a simple workaround and doesn't make other builds worthless. You cant merely switch out one or two items and suddenly be able to counter HiPSing monsters. It is something you have to plan for and dedicate a significant part of your build towards.

yeah, just purchase a pair of +3 clubs simply to fight in fields of the dead... ...not to mention they took no weapons proficiencies in clubs... ...oh, and it still doesnt make up for the fact undead are immune to sneak attacks.

but anyways, valefort says hipsing monsters have 0 cooldown between hips, so i would not be cool with HiPSing enemies except for perhaps one awesome boss. head of the assassins guild or something.

[Valefort]

It's not that they have 0 cooldown between several HiPS, it's 6s for them too, it's the fact they HiPS and attack immediately after, not letting detection kick in, which is problematic.

[NegInfinity]

benefits/tradeoffs are totally different though. If a dungeon were to have mobs that hipsed in and out every five seconds getting death attacks constantly and being all but impossible to target with spells then I am sorry but no. I would not enjoy it at all. If you would that is fine but I really do hope our devs spend time elsewhere first.

it would give fighters the same feeling rogues and sneaks get when they go to fields of the dead; their backstab is pointless, they usually use bladed weapons, and skeleton mages destroy them.

but i dont want sneak npcs that hips every 5 seconds either. maybe a special hips for enemies that requires a 30 second cool down. i think that would be thrilling for any build to fight.

i also kind of imagine hipser enemies as bosses.

Rogues in the FoD need epic precision, and without it they can use blunt weapons.

My own characters that relied on critical hits avoided fields of the dead because of that reason.

There are sneaks on the server --- those that attempt to sneak up on the player. Some of those are in relatively low level zones.

[Storm Munin]

Unnerf the goblin chief on the flame lake maps in the UD, done.
Best low to mid midlevel killer around prior to nerf.

Still HIPSes btw so if someone wants to test what more HIPSing NPCs would be like that the place to go.