Redesign of Eastern Farmlands...

[Valefort]

There are no guards in the sewers, there is the thayan enclave, a trade agreement with the Zhentarim, the thieves guild never lacked influence. In other words the evil-catering-pampering is already very high, if anything it should bounce the other way around ... but that's RP and for the DMs to decide. You have to realize many people want a good aligned city because they think BG is too much on the evil side already ..

[Steve]

There are no guards in the sewers, there is the thayan enclave, a trade agreement with the Zhentarim, the thieves guild never lacked influence. In other words the evil-catering-pampering is already very high, if anything it should bounce the other way around ... but that's RP and for the DMs to decide. You have to realize many people want a good aligned city because they think BG is too much on the evil side already ..

Yes, all of this exists, but nothing can actually happen with all the guardsmen NPC patrolling town, under threat of breaking OOC rules. So what you get is a load of thayans and zhentarim sipping tea in the east gate beer garden while the radiant heart paladins brood in the corner silently. Figuratively speaking.

This...but not this. There are OOC rules...but there should only be OOC Rules against griefing, not about all the other stuff that is OOC locked down (or and in addition, what Players may fear will happen from OOC staff decisions on their RP).

But what I was thinking about is, how the Harbor should be much more...dangerous. Like, you COULD be attacked, even killed there...and I mean this to be in some way where you do not have to worry about the "rules" nor mechanics.

If that is already the case, then great! I just don't see any players really trying or even thinking this is possible...because, like...is it?!? Or maybe it needs that IG feel about it...and now, it seems very safe and stale.

[Valefort]

The harbour is safe, even lore wise, everything that is inside the walls is, but outside not at all !

[Steve]

The harbour is safe, even lore wise, everything that is inside the walls is, but outside not at all !

Baldur's Gate is safe because of the Watch; this is well known. But you also have the Blushing Mermaid operating within the City, as well the Sewers, as well the Thieves Guild plus...

I'm just saying there is plenty to take from Lore that Baldur's Gate should have places were people fall between the cracks...and illicit behavior CAN happen. Or, at least, ways in which Toons can get to those moments, but most likely have to sneak their way in, and provide ways to do it (I know...there is already one way!).

My point is, and perhaps it isn't gonna fly, but if you provide the possibility of excitement and provide the ability for a bit more "freedom" that Players feel is granted them at the FAI campfire, you can help swing RP into the Gate.

[Valefort]

Like Undercellar mixed with east gate sewers ?

[Steve]

Undercellar?

[tfunke]

Yeah so this was the 2nd version of the city that I had made. It was completed. The four corners of the city were where the creases in the image are.

So having made the existing city myself, let me be candid (because I can be)
The current city is underwhelming.. it feels cluttered and hardly inviting to spend time in. The narrow streets are a pain when you constantly have to navigate the camera to avoid it falling into buildings.

I was bummed, because even now, I'm 100% convinced that the city above that I remade, would have been far more appearling to the average person. The city felt more open and airy, akin to the cities in the neverwinter nights games. This would have lent itself well to DM events. I'd also made the areas run considerably smoother than the current existing areas, while still improving upon it. No easy feat.

IF any devs have this version I made, along with the newer, more slummy eastern farmlands, I could be tempted to return and finish it for you all. I did enjoy the creative side of area making.

On a final note, we tried many things over the years to bring the hub back to BG, but nothing ever worked. I believe its a cultural thing at this stage and as such, quite difficult to change.

[Valefort]

Looking at the differences between that map and the BG game version you notice they removed all the fancy trees and most dead spaces. Those simply do not belong there whatsoever... this picture was reviewed and corrected back then, why repeat their initial mistake ?

While I can't know their reasons for sure try dropping the artist view and use a practical eye on any part of this picture and it should make you wince, realism has to stay second behind playability, granted, but this picture of a large town is full of absurdities.

1. Trees decorating every street as if space inside the walls wasn't scarce (otherwise people wouldn't be building outside the walls).
2. Large streets (why are those streets large ? what's the reason ? Are there ships moving in the streets ?).
3. Killing field near the inner wall filled with trees, making it useless and even dangerous.
4. Houses touching walls around the palace, even though it's portrayed as a fortress (an abomination that is true on the server as well). If anything palaces, fortress or not, are set apart from their surroundings.
5. Extremely tiny harbour, one dock, no shipyard.
6. Where do people live ?
7. More houses huddling against the exterior city walls.

The list can go on for a long time. This picture is pretty and our version of BG is largely based on it still (placement of varous buildings like Iron Throne tower, Flaming Fist compound, Hall of wonders or Duchal Palace) but it's also full of mistakes and there are only so many you can ignore while RPing.

[Tantive]

So, this Baldurs gate is based on the original game version, but that one is an extreme condensed version of the Baldurs Gate from the Realms.


Though that picture is one slighty later in time.


Pre spellplague.


Here is a variants with better oversight, fan made.





We miss a couple of districts, and could greatly expand it, following logically the forgotten realms original.

[flipside43]

Just want to mention as well that BG is a Lord's Alliance city state faction with Lord's Alliance troops within it, as well as quite likely their spies. If anything is overlooked in the current landscape, i'd say it's that.

As for why BG isn't populated, it's not because of RP potential as much as it is design and server flow. This has been obvious for years and little has been done about it, despite what has been said elsewhere.

As for districts, i'd rather not have MORE maps. BG is already a bit too big as it is, as far as functionality goes.

Ulgoth is more than 60km away from Baldur's Gate, not even talking about Roaringshore

Yeah, but...who doesn't want to take a skimpy little rowboat by moonlight from a secret portal dock leaving out one of the sewer outlets...!!! What sneaky fun!!! What smelly fun!!

One additional thing I would suggest needs to happen: a paradigm shift in the in-character role-play Lore aspect of Baldur's Gate. Essentially, BG has the Dukes and the Fist, but also has a yuuuuge underground, thieves with power, a major Temple to Umberlee, etc....and this essentially means the City should cater to a bit more "evil"-minded role-play. BG can no longer feel like this artificially "safe hub" for our toons OOC and IC—it needs to shift to have "sectors" or neighborhoods were lawlessness is happening and there are no auto-script guards nor DMs ready to stop that (#2) before it starts.

I know this will take some heavy lifting, both on the part of the Server Staff/DMs and the Playerbase, but...just imagine how much more interesting it will become if the semi-shady can be present within the Gate in certain areas—not in others, natch!—and thus bring more of the Player population to come to actually populate BG.

[Steve]

Just want to mention as well that BG is a Lord's Alliance city state faction with Lord's Alliance troops within it, as well as quite likely their spies. If anything is overlooked in the current landscape, i'd say it's that.

Should we be thinking then that nothing minor can happen in BG?

So many minor and MAJOR plots/events have happened in Baldur's Gate, and the Lord's Alliance was no where to be found...sometimes, even the Dukes are no where to be found!

My point is, there are already OOC measures in place to keep Players from developing seedy and even evil actions in Baldur's Gate city without long process DM permission. Let's not place more IC or Lore suppositions that make it seem near impossible to try.

I'd say THIS is what keeps even more Players out of BG with their toons, because they just think why bother RPing in a place that is like...impossible.

Anyway, design and server flow is what has been at the heart of this thread. I just wanted to add that the background environment seems static, stuck and unchangeable from a Player perspective. At least this player's....

[flipside43]

Steve I don't know what you are on about. It's not like those rules are not in place for every civilization. There are plenty of areas in BG that are interior with no NPCs and the sewers. Plus the Zhentarim are in the city, the Thayans, the Thieves rule the docks. It should be a lot harder to commit crimes in crowded places, which is why it requires DM oversight because of the vast number of NPCs. Maybe if you get into examples of what is so frustrating i'll underststand better but I don't want to derail this thread.

On topic, most of the merchants in the eastern farmlands should be relocated to the "Wide" which is in the city, and likely the "Wide" in the city should be somewhere in the east gate so you don't have to transition so much. Then turn the farmlands into slums like it is in lore. Obviously the main road into town would be more guarded but perhaps make things more shady getting off the main road outside of town. In fact i'd mimic this in the northern farmlands as well as that's how it is in lore.

You'd also need to get mid level areas around BG if you want to replicate the FAI draw. It's mainly because it's a crossroads of several high value areas, spawn in location, and has an auctioneer and ability to sell. Plus its' on a main travel path from BG to Beregost. Currently at mid level you need to leave the city to go get experience, that needs to be corrected if you want to build a hub. Plus BG is the largest trade city in the Western Heartlands but you need to leave the city to get proper gear? Again it's all backwards, that needs to be corrected as well.

If you build up to pre-epic (maybe 15ish) in loot, quests, ease at accessing somewhere to sell, bunch together your merchants (in the Wide), make a nice place to RP (like the elfsong), make it a value place for items, you'll give people a reason to go there.

Instead Soubar was offered as an alternative to all of this for shady lower level toons. That's also working against BG.

[Maecius]

I think redesigning Baldur's Gate and its environs is on the agenda somewhere, but it's a big project.

To date, the city's seen three large revisions (maybe four if you count the deletion of the old arena map) -- one of which was a full from-the-ground-up rebuild -- and many smaller adjustments.

Naturally, as the server's named after Baldur's Gate and it is the most influential political power in the region, we'd like the city to be important to player roleplay. Finding a way to make the urban environment more conducive to roleplay, and finding a way to make the city more of a hub for transport around the region, are, of course, things that are important from a design perspective.

I think it's fair to say that there's crime, murder, and corruption in Baldur's Gate, same as any city. While I understand the lore says that it's safer than most, that doesn't mean that bad things can't happen. Most of the major cities in the world today are extremely well-policed by Forgotten Realms standards (and with modern policing technologies), but they still see plenty of crime and violence. I think one of the developers is toying with some systems that will allow players to commit crimes without a DM being present, but for now you should involve the DMs in any criminal actions you want to take against NPCs (if for no other reason than for your actions to have some sort of actual consequence, but also to avoid breaching the "no godmoding NPCs" rule).

Ideas such as those suggested in this thread so far are helpful. I don't know that any of the builders are currently willing to take on a project as huge as redesigning the city, but hopefully the good ideas suggested in this thread can be held in the back of everyone's minds, so that when this project is ready to happen we can come to the community for constructive input.

[Steve]

Hey Flip, what I’m getting at is this: what do you achieve by being a criminal in the city of Baldur’s Gate? It is not a rhetorical question, and though I could give multiple answers from the very real to the very sarcastic, I would like to hear what your answer is.

But like Big Mac noted, there should be crime, murder and corruption that Players not only react to, but can participate in and create...though, I’m not certain the Staff really wants that type of RP as a player-generated aspect to the Server—it is mostly seen, at least by me from Forum postings, to be NPC actions that PCs react to, solve, and go home happy.

You said it yourself: “...turn the Farmlands into slums...”. Have you ever lived in the slums of a city? I have, a few times, as a child, as an adult. That “ambiance” is faaaaar from what the current soldiered streets of the Gate work now.

Right now, the Gate has been setup mechanically to prevent arse-hattery, which is a good thing. But that is why I said in the beginning it would take a boat load of work for Staff and Players to have the mechanics changed and not get abused...and to see actions from an IC standpoint, where they have real concrete consequences, thus preventing arse-hattery.

Look, if it IS true that the Thieves Guild is organizing crimes or being criminal, or the Thayans are practicing their world domination, or the Zhentarim are actually planting spies and loyalists in key political positions so when the time comes throats can be slit all the way up the chain of command to the Dukes door, then I’m just ignorant and I’ll STFU.

But as far as I know, the last two attempts by DMs to provide shady character NPC interaction totally failed to manifest, for one reason here and one reason there. And if BG would provide a source of RP and Events for all types of characters that Players wan to play, there just has to be possibilities for both sides to act!

[flipside43]

Well lets identify the baseline motivation for criminal activity, either it's: 1) survival, 2) power (through wealth, influence, ect.), or 3) interest (ie doing it because you can or whatever other personal motivation a character might have).

I'll focus on number 2: power as this is likely the main reason our PC's will have for pursuing criminal activity given leveling, not playing a commoner, ect.

So for power, what it yields you is notoriety and influence that can be used in RP situations both with DMs and with other players (depending on how much is known, ect ect).

So again, it all depends on character, but perhaps you want to persue influence in court, influence in the underworld, joining a faction, your own notoriety for vanity's sake.

Now how would I go about this while minimizing interaction with the busy DM staff? I'd use the sewers, the "homes", some of these have chests to RP "robbing", find myself some underlings / associates. To be more specific, i'd start rumors of untold wealth being found in the sewers, perhaps plant a few things, draw PC's down then try to rob them/murder them. Befriend people, draw them into a house then do the deed. Spread rumors about yourself. Take on a double life as a cover.

Then i'd work with the DMs, once I have some underlings/associates (as you have much better results with a group) to do something, perhaps ask for an event to rob a house or murder someone). Get yourself an approved background by submitting a biography (not posted) so you have something to brag about IC'ly from before you arrived, that's approved.

As for the guilds, I won't speak much for them but I know for a fact the Thieves Guild runs the docks and there's a DM rumors post recently reposted here. For the Thayans and Zhentarim, I cannot comment much about this year but lets look at last year's score board (1352). I see the Zhentarim, I see the Thayans, and I don't see much from anyone else. That may change this year, we'll see but it should tell you something.

And yes, I've lived in the slums.

If all you want is mechanical PvE to act criminal in BG, i'd argue we have that in the sewers. Perhaps the poorer / slums could be put in with some PvE content or a warehouse to steal from or something, I don't know. Revamping the farmlands I do think would go a long way and putting in some situational rules like at the FAI.

My closing point though is if you want to make change, you need a good team OOCly to back you and help you push it. DMs respond much more to things that affect more PCs and have the influence to affect more beyond that. Plus it will only help you build the RP when you have support.

Hey Flip, what I’m getting at is this: what do you achieve by being a criminal in the city of Baldur’s Gate? It is not a rhetorical question, and though I could give multiple answers from the very real to the very sarcastic, I would like to hear what your answer is.

But like Big Mac noted, there should be crime, murder and corruption that Players not only react to, but can participate in and create...though, I’m not certain the Staff really wants that type of RP as a player-generated aspect to the Server—it is mostly seen, at least by me from Forum postings, to be NPC actions that PCs react to, solve, and go home happy.

You said it yourself: “...turn the Farmlands into slums...”. Have you ever lived in the slums of a city? I have, a few times, as a child, as an adult. That “ambiance” is faaaaar from what the current soldiered streets of the Gate work now.

Right now, the Gate has been setup mechanically to prevent arse-hattery, which is a good thing. But that is why I said in the beginning it would take a boat load of work for Staff and Players to have the mechanics changed and not get abused...and to see actions from an IC standpoint, where they have real concrete consequences, thus preventing arse-hattery.

Look, if it IS true that the Thieves Guild is organizing crimes or being criminal, or the Thayans are practicing their world domination, or the Zhentarim are actually planting spies and loyalists in key political positions so when the time comes throats can be slit all the way up the chain of command to the Dukes door, then I’m just ignorant and I’ll STFU.

But as far as I know, the last two attempts by DMs to provide shady character NPC interaction totally failed to manifest, for one reason here and one reason there. And if BG would provide a source of RP and Events for all types of characters that Players wan to play, there just has to be possibilities for both sides to act!