Drow Daggerspell Mage

[Max Hatchet]

is this totally fluffy or can some rationale be made for a drow learning the technique off a visitor to the Underdark?

- i know the Daggerspells are in Complete Adventurer so are not proper canon so need some adapting

- any DM/Admin ruling would be welcome

[chad878262]

is this totally fluffy or can some rationale be made for a drow learning the technique off a visitor to the Underdark?

non-evil so it is a bit of a stretch, but there are already plenty of non-evil drow. Lore-wise I imagine it would take a long time to build trust before a DSM would teach a Drow so it's a bit far off from that perspective as well. However, players have already made Drow DSM's in the past and there is no rule against it. (pro-tip, use Bodyguard in place of other classes to get 2d6 sneak attack for 3 levels and avoid an XP penalty with no feat requirement. Other PRC's can also be used such as Assassin, depending on the type of DSM you are looking to build).

Example Drow split would be Wlk14/NWN3/DSM10/SD3, for example. Another option would be Wlk12/A8/DSM10.

[Max Hatchet]

you only need 1D6 sneak to be a Daggerspell Mage?

[chad878262]

Correct, but remember 3b20 rule. While there are other ways to get the 1d6 SA dice such as Whirling Dervish, the cost is higher and you don't get as much out of it. Bodyguard doesn't get as many skill points, but does get 2d6 SA dice and 10% faster movement which is a nice add alongside high BAB. Assassin for HiPS is obviously nice as well for some extra spell buffs, death attack paralyzation and 4d6 sneak dmg.

If you are looking to use dagger cast more another option could be W7/R3/AT10/DSM10, no HiPS, but full caster progression and pretty sweet RTA damage out of stealth. Wizard being the favored class for Drow helps as well.

[freekender]

Another option would be Wlk12/A8/DSM10

That split would be not possible due to Assassin requiring 8 Hide and Move Silently, which are not class skills for a Warlock. Earliest you could take Asassin would be at level 14 (a pity).

[chad878262]

Another option would be Wlk12/A8/DSM10

That split would be not possible due to Assassin requiring 8 Hide and Move Silently, which are not class skills for a Warlock. Earliest you could take Asassin would be at level 14 (a pity).

whoops, forgot about that. So I suppose you could go Wlk14/A9/DSM7.

[freekender]

I play a drow wit the Wl12/NWN3/DgM10/SD3 split. I've been always curious about how better or not is the Wl/As/DgM in comparison. Anyone has played both?

[chad878262]

While I haven't played either I have seen the SD version and action and it is already insanely strong. In theory, it's pretty easy to determine the relative positives and negatives of going Assassin instead.

Positives:
- More sneak dice (5d6 death attack from A9 vs. 2d6 from NWN3). Total is 7d6 vs. 5d6 so net gain is only ~7 damage per sneak attack).
- Death Attack to occasionally make a statue.
- Some utility from Assassin spells.
- 3 pre-epic "open" feats (vs. only 1 with SD/NWN version)

Negatives:
- CL - 25 (-8 from assassin, -1 from DSM) vs. 27 (-3 from NWN, -3 from SD, -1 from DSM)
- HiPS late - At level 20 you will be Wlk14/A3/DSM3 meaning you won't get HiPS until level 25.
- No Evasion (and no expose weakness)
- 1d6 less hideous blow/eldritch blast dice (somewhat making the increased sneak dice less a positive, except you can land sneak attack 4 times/round vs. hideous blow once per round).

My opinion: Assassin version will be better at level 25+ (once HiPS is obtained), but only slightly. Death Attack and spell utility are really nice to have. However, losing out on Evasion/Expose Weakness is rough. Improved TWF comes so late for DSM as to be rendered worthless, it really aught to come earlier considering in most cases you can't take the PRC until level 15 unless you are able to cross class rogue with your build. ITWF is a feat most builds would take no later than level 12 with Greater TWF coming at 15 or 18. However, due to only getting ITWF at level 10 it's something that builds have to take anyway. In my opinion ITWF should come at ~4 or 5 with double Daggercast being moved to 7, Arcane Infusion at 8 and Arcane Throw at 10. Just my opinion, but as it stands building a melee oriented DSM generally requires you to 'waste' the free ITWF because it comes too late. Point being that this loss is less accute in case of assassin because you don't need to take Dodge/Mobility. So for the Assassin version in pre-epic you likely have TWF, ITWF, GTWF, WF: Dagger leaving 3 other feats to pick from. The SD/NWN version you have Dodge, Mobility, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and WF: Dagger leaving you only one free feat. Again, I think the Assassin version will turn out just a bit better for these reasons, but they will be very similar in play style and effectiveness.

[freekender]

While I haven't played either I have seen the SD version and action and it is already insanely strong. In theory, it's pretty easy to determine the relative positives and negatives of going Assassin instead.

Positives:
- More sneak dice (5d6 death attack from A9 vs. 2d6 from NWN3). Total is 7d6 vs. 5d6 so net gain is only ~7 damage per sneak attack).
- Death Attack to occasionally make a statue.
- Some utility from Assassin spells.
- 3 pre-epic "open" feats (vs. only 1 with SD/NWN version)

Negatives:
- CL - 25 (-8 from assassin, -1 from DSM) vs. 27 (-3 from NWN, -3 from SD, -1 from DSM)
- HiPS late - At level 20 you will be Wlk14/A3/DSM3 meaning you won't get HiPS until level 25.
- No Evasion (and no expose weakness)
- 1d6 less hideous blow/eldritch blast dice (somewhat making the increased sneak dice less a positive, except you can land sneak attack 4 times/round vs. hideous blow once per round).

My opinion: Assassin version will be better at level 25+ (once HiPS is obtained), but only slightly. Death Attack and spell utility are really nice to have. However, losing out on Evasion/Expose Weakness is rough. Improved TWF comes so late for DSM as to be rendered worthless, it really aught to come earlier considering in most cases you can't take the PRC until level 15 unless you are able to cross class rogue with your build. ITWF is a feat most builds would take no later than level 12 with Greater TWF coming at 15 or 18. However, due to only getting ITWF at level 10 it's something that builds have to take anyway. In my opinion ITWF should come at ~4 or 5 with double Daggercast being moved to 7, Arcane Infusion at 8 and Arcane Throw at 10. Just my opinion, but as it stands building a melee oriented DSM generally requires you to 'waste' the free ITWF because it comes too late. Point being that this loss is less accute in case of assassin because you don't need to take Dodge/Mobility. So for the Assassin version in pre-epic you likely have TWF, ITWF, GTWF, WF: Dagger leaving 3 other feats to pick from. The SD/NWN version you have Dodge, Mobility, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and WF: Dagger leaving you only one free feat. Again, I think the Assassin version will turn out just a bit better for these reasons, but they will be very similar in play style and effectiveness.

Very interesting review Chad. I think I will stick with my DsM/SD, as the damage from Expose Weakness should pair both builds. My only observation would be that you can perfectly make a Wl13/As9/DsM8 (which is slightly better with Arcane Throw with both hands)

Now that I think about it, a 10Wl/3HW/9As/8DsM would be even better with the HW baatezu pets. Sadly, this is actually not possible with some of the class changes on the server, unless an alignment change is made during the leveling (HW requires evil and DsM non evil).

Sorry if this rant goes offtopic lol. Warlock is by far my favourite class