EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Questions About Character Builds, Build Critiques, and Build Sharing

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blacksoft
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by blacksoft »

Sun Wukong wrote:viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49036 <= Weapon Mastery, Throwing is listed in there.
hmmm, wonder how I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

Still do not see the real advantage of thrower over bow as the bab values on a EDM build are similar for dex/str based as long as ending with 17/18 dex and 21 strength...
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
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Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

The build has 11 levels of Barbarian. Hence the build has Greater Rage, which gives +6 strength, which in turn stacks with enchantment bonus to strength, such as a potion of Bull's Strength. Together it is +10 strength, +5 AB and Damage per hit.

A thrower will be able to hold a shield, which increases AC. A thrower will get AB and Damage from one stat, which also increases their carrying capacity. A thrower will look different to all those cookie cutter archers this server is filled with. A thrower can make use of a melee weapon. And so on, and so on...
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
Khazrak
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Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:58 pm

Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by Khazrak »

Well, the build also has slightly better survivability in general if you're willing to spend gold. Unlimited haste / invis? Bring haste/invis potions or wands. (Which I've done on other servers.) More AC and Steadfast Determination = the build is less likely to keel over to a bad save. It has a ton more HP (even more in rage) than the EDM Archer, and before the weapons themselves are taken into consideration deals... uh, actually just as much damage as the EDM Archer, it looks like.

The EDM Archer's crits will be far better; let's admit that firstly. The EDM Archer will take less range penalties to attack. But Sun Wukong's thrower is really sturdy, and my wood elf thrower has Greater Rage, Epic Weapon Spec, Extra Turning (for more EDM uses), Extra and Extend Rage from an amulet (for more Rage uses), Improved Crit (which means my character has a 19-20 crit range vs. your 20 x3, so they're very comparable unless you get a Keen longbow), etc.

Assume at level 26 I take Extra Strength, boosting my STR to 22. Due to having a high strength during rage (22+4+6=32 for a +12 bonus), my character should have higher Attack Bonus than yours (18+4=22 = a +6 bonus). My character also has 1 more BAB, so still a higher attack bonus. My static damage bonuses with throwing axes are higher because both my Charisma and Strength have a theoretically higher ceiling (+4 items or spells for 22+4 on charisma, or 22+6+4 for strength, vs. 21+4 and 21+4), though we both benefit from looking at harder to get spells (like the paladin self-buff that grants +4 charisma that stacks with everything).

I take a -2 penalty for rapid shot, note, but if I want to lose that penalty, I can drop Steadfast Determination at level 18 for Imp. Rapid Shot. That's a tough call, however.

Point is, before range and specific weapons are taken into account, throwing actually seems to be the best EDM setup. I'd prefer the Bow or Crossbow for most builds, but I find the choice of Epic Divine Might for thrown weapons VERY justified so far.

Is it the best build in the world? I doubt it. But this makes a really fun ranged character so far.
blacksoft
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by blacksoft »

Khazrak wrote:Well, the build also has slightly better survivability in general if you're willing to spend gold. Unlimited haste / invis? Bring haste/invis potions or wands. (Which I've done on other servers.) More AC and Steadfast Determination = the build is less likely to keel over to a bad save. It has a ton more HP (even more in rage) than the EDM Archer, and before the weapons themselves are taken into consideration deals... uh, actually just as much damage as the EDM Archer, it looks like.

The EDM Archer's crits will be far better; let's admit that firstly. The EDM Archer will take less range penalties to attack. But Sun Wukong's thrower is really sturdy, and my wood elf thrower has Greater Rage, Epic Weapon Spec, Extra Turning (for more EDM uses), Extra and Extend Rage from an amulet (for more Rage uses), Improved Crit (which means my character has a 19-20 crit range vs. your 20 x3, so they're very comparable unless you get a Keen longbow), etc.

Assume at level 26 I take Extra Strength, boosting my STR to 22. Due to having a high strength during rage (22+4+6=32 for a +12 bonus), my character should have higher Attack Bonus than yours (18+4=22 = a +6 bonus). My character also has 1 more BAB, so still a higher attack bonus. My static damage bonuses with throwing axes are higher because both my Charisma and Strength have a theoretically higher ceiling (+4 items or spells for 22+4 on charisma, or 22+6+4 for strength, vs. 21+4 and 21+4), though we both benefit from looking at harder to get spells (like the paladin self-buff that grants +4 charisma that stacks with everything).

I take a -2 penalty for rapid shot, note, but if I want to lose that penalty, I can drop Steadfast Determination at level 18 for Imp. Rapid Shot. That's a tough call, however.

Point is, before range and specific weapons are taken into account, throwing actually seems to be the best EDM setup. I'd prefer the Bow or Crossbow for most builds, but I find the choice of Epic Divine Might for thrown weapons VERY justified so far.

Is it the best build in the world? I doubt it. But this makes a really fun ranged character so far.
Good write-up. Thank you.

As for the build mentioned earlier could easily replace warlock for arcane archer 7 and assassin 1 (for nine levels).

I just really liked the theory of inv - manyshot - HIPS - manyshot - inv - manyshot - HIPS.

But if gold is not really a concern, I guess, then having better ac and HP are easily better selling points.
blacksoft
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by blacksoft »

Sun Wukong wrote:The build has 11 levels of Barbarian. Hence the build has Greater Rage, which gives +6 strength, which in turn stacks with enchantment bonus to strength, such as a potion of Bull's Strength. Together it is +10 strength, +5 AB and Damage per hit.

A thrower will be able to hold a shield, which increases AC. A thrower will get AB and Damage from one stat, which also increases their carrying capacity. A thrower will look different to all those cookie cutter archers this server is filled with. A thrower can make use of a melee weapon. And so on, and so on...
AC is better, sure. flavor, sure. Any EDM character can make use of melee whether they are thrower or archer.

Rage only lasts so long and only has so many uses. It is a nice perk for builds that cannot keep rage up and running, but should not be what allows them to do what they need to do. At least this appears to be the case...
Khazrak
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:58 pm

Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by Khazrak »

blacksoft wrote: Good write-up. Thank you.

As for the build mentioned earlier could easily replace warlock for arcane archer 7 and assassin 1 (for nine levels).

I just really liked the theory of inv - manyshot - HIPS - manyshot - inv - manyshot - HIPS.

But if gold is not really a concern, I guess, then having better ac and HP are easily better selling points.
Oh, Arcane Archer would definitely be a good fit, I think. That's where the bow can start to get an edge, I think.

Also consider that any build that uses Blackguard instead of Cleric makes the following tradeoffs, which is good or bad depending on your preferences:

PROS:

1. Blackguard does not lose any BAB. Cleric does at level 1.
2. Blackguard gets +CHA to all saves. Nice.
3. Blackguard gets more HP than Cleric.

CONS:

1. You need 4 Blackguard levels vs. 3 Cleric levels.
2. Cleric can effectively get 2 bonus feats from its domains, which can go toward Blind Fight, Luck of Heroes, Toughness... Or it could get Evasion, or what-have-you. Blackguard does not.

So there's arguments to be made for either making a cleric or a blackguard. Good and evil alignments both have solid options.

If you don't want Barbarian levels AND want to be Good, you can take 4 Paladin instead of Blackguard for similar results. But Barbarian offers so much of a damage boost via its rage that... well, crap. Why wouldn't you want to go Barbarian?
Rage only lasts so long and only has so many uses. It is a nice perk for builds that cannot keep rage up and running, but should not be what allows them to do what they need to do.
Fair point, but you don't need Rage up 100% of the time. You need rage up when you need that extra damage.

Think of it like in P&P: the wizard only has access to so many spells per day. So, the wizard needs to figure out how many spells to use in each fight. Not every fight needs a high level spell; perhaps a well placed Grease or Force Wall or Create Pit will do the trick, or a Fireball to clear out mooks. The Wizard only brings out the 7th/8th/9th level spells when they're necessary - unless the wizard can rest every encounter for some reason.

Likewise, the Barbarian doesn't need to be constantly throwing a fit. The Barbarian just needs rage operable during tougher fights. With 11 levels of Barbarian we have 3 rage uses; 2 more from Extra Rage I (from amulet); and our rage lasts 5 extra rounds due to Extend Rage I (amulet as well). With a +4 item we have 20 CON when raging, meaning 15 rounds of rage per use. 15x5=75 rounds of rage per rest.

There will be sufficient uptime with 75 rounds so long as the player uses their rage smartly.
Sun Wukong
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Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Blackguard gets Turn Undead at level 3 though. The 4th level is usually for Divine Shield and sneak attack dice.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
Khazrak
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:58 pm

Re: EDM Thrown Build - Needs Critique!

Unread post by Khazrak »

Sun Wukong wrote:Blackguard gets Turn Undead at level 3 though. The 4th level is usually for Divine Shield and sneak attack dice.
Oh. You see, I am a great fool.

So Blackguard is generally a solid option. It comes down to better overall defenses vs. bonus feats I think (assuming smart deity choice).
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