15 South of Beregost, Road creatures overpowered

[Hoihe]

So - we're talking about a CR 15 area, right?

Let's take a level 15 fighter then.

He invests fully into UMD. He has a full set of +3 gear, Dodge feat, Combat Expertise.

At level 15, he has 9 UMD. At 17, he has 10 UMD. Assume he has 14 cha, so he can use wands at level 17. Notice "assume". Most people don't have 14 cha as that implies leader-style or pretty or whatever.

So, UMD is out of the question.

Our fighter has the following AC:
10 base
3 Natural
3 magic armor
3 magic shield
3 dodge
1 tumble (at 17)
8 full plate
1 dexterity
1 dodge (feat)
2 heavy shield
3 combat expertise

This comes up to our fighter, 2 levels above the CR of the area, having 38 AC.


Our lovely Wyverns, known for being able to instantly kill you if they land a hit and you fail your save, have an AB of 27.

Average of 1d20 is 10.5. 27 + 10.5 = 37.5. Meaning, the average attack from the wyvern WILL hit our average fighter.

Since it's the average attack and they have a rather large amount of attacks/rouund, our fighter is going to be rolling vs the save or die a LOT.

Our fighter will die.

Our fighter, built right, is going to die vs an area that's below his CR.



Do you know who can fight these wyverns? A level 22 wizard/duelist combo who has 49 single target, 47 general AC with mirror image and displacement. That's who. She can do the area without dying.

The intended audience +2 levels cannot.

So you say "Party up!"

Our fighter parties up.

The party dies because of the AB being way above anything they can muster. The wizard /might/ be able to buff the fighter, but then the wizard is forced to become a buffbot so might as well just be an NPC.

They die again.

[Hoihe]

For comparison,

16
Durlag's Exterior and Tower


A CR 16 area.

I don't know how it is nowadays with the whole CR scaling mess but here is how it was used to be.


You have 40 AC? No probs, the enemies can't hit you but 1 roll of 1 from a random check means you're dead.

So what do you do? You become immune - get 19 fortitude and Steadfast determination.

Boom! You can do the area below the CR if you buff your fortitude to above 19 through items or spells and are immune to rolling an 1 on fort save.

The enemies are pretty damn weak except for that instakill ability.

Now, on the contrary.. as a level 30 with 60 AC, Mirror image, Displacement and 40+ average damage/hit... you avoid that area like the plague. Why? You roll an 1 on their special attack and you die.


Notice the similarity? Both areas have a creature that does a special attack that's either a mosquito bite or a crocodile assault depending on whether or not you have a single feat.

One area if you can ignore that speciality, the creatures become easy and doable even below the assigned CR. This is good balancing and a fun challenge.

One area even if you can ignore that speciality, you get screwed over even 2 levels above the CR by the amount of attacks and damage done. This is bad balancing and the literal challenge is "moar numbers".

[Velaris]

You could also use death ward, or a monk, with their immunity to poison. I believe.

The poison attack of the wyvern is what makes them a challenge instead of a safe xp grind like xvarts, (except to archers, or monks, clerics, anyone partied with a cleric...or anyone with access to death wards...or holding spells...long range magic...summons...)
If your fighter is having an especially difficult time with wyverns, and you don't enjoy getting poisoned and drinking antidotes and restoration potions...well, don't fight wyverns I guess?

I like that there are areas that are easier with some classes, and harder for others. It makes for a more interesting and realistic experience, in my opinion of course.

I can walk through the vault of the dead with my cleric without difficulty (bosses not included), yet get overwhelmed by trolls or living creatures if I'm overconfident. I like that, it creates a feeling of uncertainty, even if I'm out of what I think is a safe range for the CR of the area.

[Endelyon]

Why heavy shield instead of tower shield?

Also, in the toolset these wyverns in this area south of Beregost have an AB of 18. Can you show me a screenshot of one attacking you with 27 AB? It sounds like a bug (or maybe some seriously overzealous creature scaling as +9 is clearly a bit much), but without more information it's impossible for me to figure out why it came out with so much AB.

[Velaris]

If a high level toon ran through, might that cause the increase? Then of course the wyvern would have a yellow text correct?

[Diamore]

I have avoided this area since I first started playing here with all of my characters except for my epics. My level 22 Fighter still doesn't go there because of the number of high AB attacks and the devastating poison.

It should be noted that there is also an efreet that spawns regularly which can see through invisibility and casts spells with a sizeable hp pool and reliable AB.

I would be curious as to what level 15 builds can xp in this area with only limited threat, as I had always judged this place as closer to CR 18 and treated it that way even when in groups. The poison, high number of attacks and strange spellcaster spawn all made it too random to chance.

[Endelyon]

I did a little experimentation and I managed to get a version with 23 AB before scaling (though the common version had only 20 AB, they had some feats and stuff the toolset's calculated AB wasn't compensating for). With scaling and unlucky conditions I could imagine it hitting 27, so I dialed their AB back a little bit and removed some feats to take some of their bite away hopefully without making them a pushover. It'll be in the next update.

[Sun Wukong]

I ran around the area with my level 23 ranger:



Wyvern's highest BAB attack for me was 26, and the poison DC was 26. I got about 18-20 experience points per kill. (Only one gold label Wyvern was spawned.)

I would be curious as to what level 15 builds can xp in this area with only limited threat, as I had always judged this place as closer to CR 18 and treated it that way even when in groups. The poison, high number of attacks and strange spellcaster spawn all made it too random to chance.

Northlander Hewing Halfling Barbarian/Dragonslayers, though that was prior to the scaling mobs. It is a NWN2 specific thing, but you do not automatically die at 0 constitution like you would in a game of tabletop. Therefore, if you got large hit dice, hp boosting items or feats, the effect of the constitution damage will become a negligible issue. Constitution modifier 0 is just -5 modifier, so it basically just halves the fighter HD per level. Sure, you got less HP to take hits, but if you are carrying those tens of stacks of healing kits you can just use a few after each wyvern you slay and keep going.

Alternatively, a ranged ranger with Dragons as one of their favored enemy, and a buffed up animal companion should be able to clear the wyverns with minimal challenge. You land your ranged hits before the wyverns even get close to you, and you got your animal companion between you and the wyvern. (It helps to have Outsiders as your other favored enemy in case a Djinn or two pop up.) Oh and just like before, bring some healing kits to keep your animal companion alive.

In my books the area is actually pretty simple. But yeah, I wouldn't go there on a character with less than 8 HD per level.

[Sun Wukong]

The Wyvern Area has the unfortunate trait of being a part of two quests. Initially there is the quest to fetch those Wyvern Eggs from the nests, and more importantly there is the Hunter Harrow's Supplies quest that makes you run between Nashkel and Beregost a few times to get it done. Thus high levels on quest runs combined with scaling mobs is not the best match on that one particular area.

For example, any of my epic casters would just run to the egg invisible and straight back up, while others builds would kill a few wyverns on the way. Thus if a lower level character pops up and the old spawns haven't yet despawned... Yeah, I can see the problems.

[Endelyon]

For those quests I'd recommend buying potions of invis from the Thayan Enclave in BG, especially for low level characters trying to accomplish them. They're cheap and they only last 3 minutes but it makes it a breeze.

[NegInfinity]

So - we're talking about a CR 15 area, right?

Let's take a level 15 fighter then.

CR does not really mean that anyone of that level should be able to handle the area. There are multiple gotcahs, and some classes will be better suitable for certain areas, and less suitable for certain other areas.

Wyvern area is one of the worst locations where a melee fighter could possibly go, unless they're con based with steadfast determination. it is more suitable for ranged dattackers.

I would be curious as to what level 15 builds can xp in this area with only limited threat,

Crossbow sniper assassin might be able to do that, if they got their hipsing gear. Another possibility is necromancer summoner.

Also, CR 15 is supposed to mean that it is for a party of four level 15 characters. Meaning a single character should only go there at level 17 or 18, like you said.

I think four level 15 characters in general should be able to handle the area without any issue.

[Sun Wukong]

My level 13 Halfling Barbarian/Dragon Slayer without Steadfast Determination was able to go through the area. It was a strength based build with Whirlwind Frenzy. I just hit rage for increased AB and extra attack, and the few extra points of damage from Dragonslayer did help too. I just had to take down the wyverns before those took me down.

In my experience those Wyverns have pretty low AC...

[Theodore01]

I've been fighting the wyverns/efreets 4 times in the last week with my lv14 dwarf fighter (33AC) in a small group of 3. Never got poisoned or into much danger there.
We even farmed them for some time until we got bored.

[Androoh]

.

[aaron22]

i usually farm these wyverns. it takes a little more consideration to fight these. but if you follow some simple rules, wyverns can be some of the easier mobs to kill at equal CR or better.