Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetection.

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Incarnate
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Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetection.

Unread post by Incarnate »

Hello DMs & DM-team.

It has come to my attention that the True Seeing spell works differently here on the server and the DMs have ruled that the Nondetection spell doesn't work against True Seeing.

Being a very experienced PnP DM myself I would like to make you aware of something in relation to this ruling that might change your ruling on this.

I don't know if the DM-team is aware of the DnD Sage - Jeremy Crawford, Lead Rules Designer of D&D, has actually made a ruling/statement in regards to this. Since he's the lead rules designer I think it matters quite a lot how he says it works.

The dnd sage has ruled/stated that Nondetection works against true seeing, spefically that Nondetection hides one from True Seeing.

Image

I definitely think that in light this the DM-team should reconsider and re-evaluate their ruling, they would like to make it stay or change it to how it was intended. I would like to point out since it was stated by the lead designer, its very important to consider that making it work differently than intended would be very likely cause imbalances in the game in relation to that. Since he's stated that Nondetection ALLOWS you to hide from True Seeing I would say that it most certainly is breaking the balance, since it allows you to directly counter it, but with your ruling NOTHING magical can counter it apart from dispel magic which has to be actively cast to negate the True Seeing spell, where Nondetection works passively - which affects roleplay actions and consequences thereof quite critically.

Ex. You have one who doesn't want do be detected for what he is, so he has already cast nondetection while being alone and unobserved. Suddenly a someone casts True Seeing revealed by his spellcraft check, so he wants to counter it, but this is an active action, which now means that the one casting the True Seeing spell would see his spell being counterspelled, which only would lead to suspicion as the counterspelling would be a highly suspicious act under those circumstances, which the Nondetection spell was susposed to hinder from happening. Which obviously would most likely escalate to a quite critical situation.

Ex.2. Based on the above example, the one who cast True Seeing would cast it normally without being attempted to be counterspelled, as he successfully cast it and didn't detect anything suspicious he carries on.

You've been presented with the evidence of Nondetection actually is supposed to work against True Seeing, and one in fact should be able to hide from the True Seeing spell through Nondetection.

I'm looking forward to reading your ruling in regards to this.

Thank you for reading.

// Inc.
Last edited by Incarnate on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

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The image doesn't seem to be working
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Incarnate »

Arn wrote:The image doesn't seem to be working
FIXED!
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by chad878262 »

We play in the first edition time with 3.5 rules. Previously the ruling has been that non detection protects from things like scrying and clairvoyance/clairaudience. Is that post with regards to 5e?
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Incarnate »

chad878262 wrote:We play in the first edition time with 3.5 rules. Previously the ruling has been that non detection protects from things like scrying and clairvoyance/clairaudience. Is that post with regards to 5e?
I know its 3.5 rules we play by, however its still the same spell, its simply different wording.
The intention of Nondetection working against True Seeing hasn't changed, in 3.5 it could simply be interpreted to be that it doesn't. So in light of the statement by the lead rules designer, it would seem very much so that the intention of the Nondetection spell in relation to the True Seeing spell was to work against it. In the newer edition this has just been clarified to the extreme so that NO incorrect interpretations can me made.

3.5 Edition Nondetection
The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

5'th Edition Nondetection
For the duration, you hide a target that you touch from divination magic. The target can be a willing creature or a place or an object no larger than 10 feet in any dimension. The target can’t be targeted by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

Comparing the two it should be quite evident what their intention was with the 3.5 edition Nondetection spell, but since it was being interpreted and ruled differently than what they had intended, that they've worded it in the 5'th edition so obvious, that it cannot be interpreted to function differently.
Last edited by Incarnate on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Calodan »

Seeing the posts about Disguise Undead I went out and did some research cause I assumed this thread was coming.

It is literally split decision through all the timelines. So it will really depend on what the DM team here decides to do.

There is one school of thought that just goes by True Seeing descriptor of Divination and that non-detection protects against Divination.

The other school of thought delves into the fact that seeing a person's illiusion they are putting up is defined by passing a will check to perceive this. True Seeing simply allows you to AUTO pass this will check in that school of thought and since non-detection does not directly state that it does anything to the PC being able to pass their will check automatically when in direct sight then non-detection does not hinder True Seeing.

I think Non-detection on this server in the use that the original poster wants is the equivalent of Paladins getting Detect Evil here and would in essence create issues for DMs in the long run. Better to rule that True Seeing sees through magical effects despite non-detection when in direct line of sight.

Just my two cents the DMs will of course decide if they wish to address this or not and rule on it.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

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https://dndtools.net/spells/players-han ... ing--2520/
True Seeing
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 296)

Divination
Level: Cleric 5, Knight of the Weave 5, Adept 5, Healer 5, Wizard 6, Sorcerer 6, Beguiler 6, Wu Jen 6, Sha'ir 6, Court Herald 6, Druid 7, Death Master 7, Urban Druid 7, Knowledge 5, Dragon 5, Inquisition 5, Trade 6,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Incarnate »

Calodan wrote:Seeing the posts about Disguise Undead I went out and did some research cause I assumed this thread was coming.

It is literally split decision through all the timelines. So it will really depend on what the DM team here decides to do.

There is one school of thought that just goes by True Seeing descriptor of Divination and that non-detection protects against Divination.

The other school of thought delves into the fact that seeing a person's illiusion they are putting up is defined by passing a will check to perceive this. True Seeing simply allows you to AUTO pass this will check in that school of thought and since non-detection does not directly state that it does anything to the PC being able to pass their will check automatically when in direct sight then non-detection does not hinder True Seeing.

I think Non-detection on this server in the use that the original poster wants is the equivalent of Paladins getting Detect Evil here and would in essence create issues for DMs in the long run. Better to rule that True Seeing sees through magical effects despite non-detection when in direct line of sight.

Just my two cents the DMs will of course decide if they wish to address this or not and rule on it.
What people have been thinking is quite irrelevant as its the intent by the designers that is key here. Hence also why I put up the comparison between the two edition specific nondetection spells, its quite clear that the intention of the spell has been that its supposed to work against True Seeing, because if this wasn't the case, then it wouldn't have been worded so obviously in favor of the Nondetection spell to work that way.

If True seing was supposed to just negate it, then it would've been worded differently, it would've been worded so specifically that you'd know that the True Seeing spell and similar spells would simply negate it.

Steve wrote:https://dndtools.net/spells/players-han ... ing--2520/
True Seeing
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 296)

Divination
Level: Cleric 5, Knight of the Weave 5, Adept 5, Healer 5, Wizard 6, Sorcerer 6, Beguiler 6, Wu Jen 6, Sha'ir 6, Court Herald 6, Druid 7, Death Master 7, Urban Druid 7, Knowledge 5, Dragon 5, Inquisition 5, Trade 6,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.
Nondetection is ABJURATION.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Steve »

In D&D 3.5 PHB, True Seeing is Divination.

Someone with a higher pay grade on this Server will have to state for sure what BGTSCC follows, in this regard.

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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Incarnate »

Steve wrote:In D&D 3.5 PHB, True Seeing is Divination.

Someone with a higher pay grade on this Server will have to state for sure what BGTSCC follows, in this regard.
According to the BGT:SCC Wiki:
True Seeing
School: Divination
Last edited by Incarnate on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by CleverUsername123 »

Incarnate wrote:Hello DMs & DM-team.

It has come to my attention that the True Seeing spell works differently here on the server and the DMs have ruled that the Nondetection spell doesn't work against True Seeing.

Being a very experienced PnP DM myself I would like to make you aware of something in relation to this ruling that might change your ruling on this.

I don't know if the DM-team is aware of the DnD Sage - Jeremy Crawford, Lead Rules Designer of D&D, has actually made a ruling/statement in regards to this. Since he's the lead rules designer I think it matters quite a lot how he says it works.

The dnd sage has ruled/stated that Nondetection works against true seeing, spefically that Nondetection hides one from True Seeing.

Image

I definitely think that in light this the DM-team should reconsider and re-evaluate their ruling, they would like to make it stay or change it to how it was intended. I would like to point out since it was stated by the lead designer, its very important to consider that making it work differently than intended would be very likely cause imbalances in the game in relation to that. Since he's stated that Nondetection ALLOWS you to hide from True Seeing I would say that it most certainly is breaking the balance, since it allows you to directly counter it, but with your ruling NOTHING magical can counter it apart from dispel magic which has to be actively cast to negate the True Seeing spell, where Nondetection works passively - which affects roleplay actions and consequences thereof quite critically.

Ex. You have one who doesn't want do be detected for what he is, so he has already cast nondetection while being alone and unobserved. Suddenly a someone casts True Seeing revealed by his spellcraft check, so he wants to counter it, but this is an active action, which now means that the one casting the True Seeing spell would see his spell being counterspelled, which only would lead to suspicion as the counterspelling would be a highly suspicious act under those circumstances, which the Nondetection spell was susposed to hinder from happening. Which obviously would most likely escalate to a quite critical situation.

Ex.2. Based on the above example, the one who cast True Seeing would cast it normally without being attempted to be counterspelled, as he successfully cast it and didn't detect anything suspicious he carries on.

You've been presented with the evidence of Nondetection actually is supposed to work against True Seeing, and one in fact should be able to hide from the True Seeing spell through Nondetection.

I'm looking forward to reading your ruling in regards to this.

Thank you for reading.

// Inc.
This is so dang trivial that the only reason it could possibly matter is pedantry. It makes no difference and it doesn't matter.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Steve »

Doh! I just realized you wrote about Non-detection being Anjuration!

But anyway, I don't think it changes anything—Non-detection prevents against scrying-like "detection" spells, but against "seeing" spells?!?

It's a bit of semantics here, causing seeing is just different that detecting.

HOWEVER! According to the BGTSCC Wiki on True Seeing:
This spell reveals each round whether an illusion is active on a targeted creature (or placeable, or area with Dungeon Master guidance). If the target is under the effect of a non-detection spell a secret check is first rolled to determine if the divination can proceed. If it fails the caster learns nothing more.
The question I have is if the mechanics are really all hooked up here on BGTSCC. But essentially, True Seeing should be capable of piercing Non-detection.

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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Incarnate »

CleverUsername123 wrote:This is so dang trivial that the only reason it could possibly matter is pedantry. It makes no difference and it doesn't matter.
The change does matter a great deal especially to those who would use Nondetection to hide their illusion spells, because if this change is made then True Seeing suddenly doesn't just negate Nondetection. So its not really that trivial, maybe to you, but to rp consequences that can mean a VERY, VERY BIG DIFFERENCE.
Steve wrote:But anyway, I don't think it changes anything—Non-detection prevents against scrying-like "detection" spells, but against "seeing" spells?!?

The question I have is if the mechanics are really all hooked up here on BGTSCC. But essentially, True Seeing should be capable of piercing Non-detection.
This is basically how Nondetection works with True Seeing (though not currently this way on the server).

A character with True Seeing on looking at a character with Nondetection on wouldn't do anything, because True Seeing doesn't interact with Abjuration which Nondetection is, True Seeing interacts with Illusion spells.

So if the character had an illusion spell on but not Nondetection on, then True Seeing would interact with at negate its effect, but with Nondetection on as well it would trigger the caster dc check.

Think of Nondetection as a very fine layer of abjurative fabric which doesn't interact very well with Divination, this fabric surrounds the character externally, hence why it will trigger the caster dc check.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by CleverUsername123 »

Incarnate wrote:
CleverUsername123 wrote:This is so dang trivial that the only reason it could possibly matter is pedantry. It makes no difference and it doesn't matter.
The change does matter a great deal especially to those who would use Nondetection to hide their illusion spells, because if this change is made then True Seeing suddenly doesn't just negate Nondetection. So its not really that trivial, maybe to you, but to rp consequences that can mean a VERY, VERY BIG DIFFERENCE.
Steve wrote:But anyway, I don't think it changes anything—Non-detection prevents against scrying-like "detection" spells, but against "seeing" spells?!?

The question I have is if the mechanics are really all hooked up here on BGTSCC. But essentially, True Seeing should be capable of piercing Non-detection.
This is basically how Nondetection works with True Seeing (though not currently this way on the server).

A character with True Seeing on looking at a character with Nondetection on wouldn't do anything, because True Seeing doesn't interact with Abjuration which Nondetection is, True Seeing interacts with Illusion spells.

So if the character had an illusion spell on but not Nondetection on, then True Seeing would interact with at negate its effect, but with Nondetection on as well it would trigger the caster dc check.

Think of Nondetection as a very fine layer of abjurative fabric which doesn't interact very well with Divination, this fabric surrounds the character externally, hence why it will trigger the caster dc check.
It's not that big of a difference at all. It's such a minor thing that you're the first and only person to ever care. "Think of it as fabric" isn't an argument either way, it's an incorrect metaphor. A better one would be "think about something that literally doesn't matter". This isn't D&D. It's similar, but it's NWN2, and it's a different game. It is how it is.
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Re: Ruling needs consideration - True Seeing vs. Nondetectio

Unread post by Incarnate »

CleverUsername123 wrote:It's not that big of a difference at all. It's such a minor thing that you're the first and only person to ever care. "Think of it as fabric" isn't an argument either way, it's an incorrect metaphor. A better one would be "think about something that literally doesn't matter". This isn't D&D. It's similar, but it's NWN2, and it's a different game. It is how it is.
I beg to differ:
Neverwinter Nights 2 is a role-playing video game developed by Obsidian Entertainment and published by Atari, Inc. It is the sequel to BioWare's Neverwinter Nights, based on the Dungeons & Dragons pencil and paper fantasy role-playing game. Neverwinter Nights 2 utilizes an adaptation of the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 edition rules. Neverwinter Nights 2 is set in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting—in and around the city of Neverwinter.

Source: Neverwinter Nights 2 - Wikipedia

It being based on D&D 3.5 rules makes it very much so D&D, that its an adaptation just means its been adjusted to suit its new virtual conditions.

Forgotten Realms is a campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) fantasy role-playing game.

Its very much so D&D.

Look it might be that you don't care about it, but this is certainly something that will impact rp a lot more than you apparently realize. Currently, True Seeing COUNTERS virtually anything that magical that would be an illusion, which is counterinducive to rp, because it means an ENTIRE aspect of rp is reduced to being almost UNPLAYABLE UNLESS you use mundane means because the mechanics thats in the game to help you play deceptive through the use of magic simply is being countered by ONE SPELL.

Lastly, IF it doesn't matter to you, then stay out of it.

Besides having one spell that basically can TRUMPH ANY Illusion spell is beyond overpowered and imbalanced, not to mention that this spell is only a level 5 spell where it would be more reasonable if it had been a level 9 spell.

Nondetection doesn't make it impossible for True Seeing to bypass it, but True Seeing as it is in the game now COMPLETELY TRUMPHS ANY ILLUSION Spell.

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