Bluff

[CleverUsername123]

The Bluff skill is a bit weird. When you're lying to someone IC, do you roll Bluff? It makes sense that you'd give them a chance to disbelieve you. But then that opens you up to metagaming; I've seen (not experienced myself) a few times when someone rolls the Bluff skill, beats the other person's Sense Motive score by quite a bit, and the other person is suddenly really suspicious when they weren't before.

Is it better to roll Bluff or to RP your character as more or less confident, with some indicators that he's lying in emotes, depending on your Bluff score in general and only actually roll if they roll Sense Motive first?

[Snarfy]

When you're lying to someone IC, do you roll Bluff? It makes sense that you'd give them a chance to disbelieve you. But then that opens you up to metagaming; I've seen (not experienced myself) a few times when someone rolls the Bluff skill, beats the other person's Sense Motive score by quite a bit, and the other person is suddenly really suspicious when they weren't before.

This is the exact reason I almost never use bluff rolls... the simple act of rolling a bluff gives metaknowledge to the other player(s) that your character isn't necessarily telling the truth. In essence: you're metagaming your own character.

The odd time that I do use bluff is for fun, and only when my character tells a lie so outlandish that he has trouble keeping a straight face, such as when my elf introduces himself as "Tyressan, King of the Elves".

Rolling a bluff is really silly when you think about it, especially if the opposing character doesn't have any information that runs counter to whatever may be being bluffed... and a bluff roll is often automatically interpreted as a lie OOC'ly. Never mind that a bluff can include anything from a slight modification or omission of facts, to an outright falsehood. A far better alternative when obfuscating the truth, IMHO, is to perhaps use emotes that could be possibly construed as "tells"(a lip twitch, or shaking hands) to any sense motive rolls directed your way. And, of course, learn IC'ly how to become a better liar

(Then again, I loathe "roll" play unless it's in DM events. Especially when said rolls are not accompanied by anything even vaguely resembling a descriptor or emote)

[Cenerae]

If you don't trust people not to metagame, don't give them mechanical hints, from rolls or from having clues in your description you'd rather they not know ICly. Drop subtle hints in your RP where fitting, and let the other players figure it out.

If they choose to roll sense motive, that's when I'd throw out the bluff roll.

[NegInfinity]

The Bluff skill is a bit weird. When you're lying to someone IC, do you roll Bluff?

Only DM is allowed to demand a skill roll. Whether you're rolling bluff or not is entirely up to you.

However, rolling bluff skill broadcasts HUGE amount of information about your character - starting with heavy handed hint that you're proabbly lying, and ending with your estimated character level. It also may indicate your character's fighting style and gear.

On other hand, it can be used to hint another character that something is going on, especially if you use it on somethign that is not easy to interpret as a lie.

In general, I do not recommend rolling bluff when lying unless asked by a DM.

[Tsidkenu]

Neginfinity +1,000,000

No. No. No. No. No!

Bluff is supposed to be for NPC interactions when you are in a DM event or liaising with DMs via PM about some thing or other. I will never, ever roll it against another PC unless a DM wanted me to do so (and even then, with extreme hesitation!)

You've got feintbots out there with 80+ bluff: would you really let them godmode you with that and force your character to believe all kinds of weird and wacky things? I wouldn't. That's not what skills are there for. It's not much different to those bards that show off their 100+ ranks in perform. I will ignore both and simply RP the situation as my character would perceive it.

Leave the skill rolls to DM events and let your fellow players catch you out in a lie by figuring it out for themselves, just like in real life

It's waaaay more fun that way. Trust me.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Wizards with high int are speaking like thugs and hitting you when they can't outsmart you, barbarians with negative Cha modificator show the wonders of eloquence (I must confess, I have such character), warlocks with 0 bluff are playing master manipulators, it is called a human factor.

About bluff rolls:
Roll it if you want everyone around to know that you are lying and start acting according to this.
Don't roll it if you don't want it happen.

[MrPsion]

From rules wiki

– Skill Rolls Between players
– Skill rolls may be used as guidelines in RP. However, a player is not required to follow any Skill rolls unless a DM enforces it. Only a DM may enforce skill rolls.

Two things to keep in mind about this topic are that core D&D rules are designed for a group of cooperating players vs DM controlled NPCs and that other game systems featuring PC vs PC social combat are significantly more complex than one skill rolled vs one skill to determine the final outcome. e: this isn't a suggestion that we should introduce complex social combat rules to the server, I prefer to keep conflict resolved by the game engine and DMs

[Zanniej]

I usually rolled bluff to do nothing more than to indicate how much I seemed to believe my own words.

Example:
*rolls bluff, and reaches high numbers*
"I am the king of all elves!" *he says with a straight face.*

However, that doesn't mean you have to believe the other! You've still got common sense!

*You see that the man before you is a dwarf, and you snort at the remark*

[Deathgrowl]

There are indeed modifiers that come into play.

[kleomenes]

The main reason I would roll bluff (or other social skills) is two reasons:

- when players know each other well, and we can rough and ready come up with some modifiers between ourselves.
- when I am establishing to others my character CAN bluff as an invitation for them to RP accordingly.

I don't think people rolling skills to show their investment in a given area is a bad thing. Nor from a personal perspective do I think its good practice RP wise to RP between players without some reference to the skill investment. Its about respecting other people's RP.

However on the server rules don't force "RP like X because Y skill investment" and with good reason.

With bluff, common sense plays a huge part of course.

[Sun Wukong]

You've got feintbots out there with 80+ bluff: would you really let them godmode you with that and force your character to believe all kinds of weird and wacky things? I wouldn't.

You get modifiers to the sense motive skill. For example the source books list:

• -5, The target wants to believe you.
• +0, The bluff is believable and doesn’t affect the target much.
• +5, The bluff is a little hard to believe or puts the target at some risk.
• +10, The bluff is hard to believe or puts the target at significant risk.
• +20, The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider.

The above example gives us a pattern. So lets assume that the bluff is way, way out there and it also puts the hearer at significant risk. That alone in my books could easily grant +40 situational modifier to the sense motive roll. Perhaps even more, and let us not forget that some things are just too impossible to believe. Thus you could just get flat out +100 to the sense motive check your character makes.

Now, the biggest problem with players rolling against players is who decides the modifiers. Additionally, the one who attempts to bluff usually just writes the lie and rolls their bluff right off the bat. Thus if you try to counter it with sense motive, and you start to list modifiers, the bluff roller will most likely see it as an attempt to god mod their bluff skill away.

This means that if two players want to use Bluff and Sense Motive against each other, they probably should do it in this fashion:

Player Character A: I am Lord Siamorphe! (Bluff)
Player Character B: /// Alright, you are claiming to be a demigod. At this point of time there actually is a Lord Siamorphe in the city of Baldur's Gate. But meeting a god in person is a rather unlikely event before the Time of Troubles, so lets say that is a +40 modifier for the claim being way, way out there? Now, Siamorphe has his enemies, and claiming to have met a "God" is likely to put my own character at some significant risk. It might even make Siamorphe proper my enemy, so lets say another +20? A total of +60 modifier?
Player Character A: /// Yeah, sure, makes sense. *Rolls Bluff.*
Player Character B: /// *Rolls Sense Motive.*

<> Insert some quick calculations. <>

Player Character B: *GASPS.* LORD SIAMORPHE? *Bows profoundly.*

That's not what skills are there for. It's not much different to those bards that show off their 100+ ranks in perform. I will ignore both and simply RP the situation as my character would perceive it.

In other words, god-mod your way out of dice rolls, in a game based on dice rolls...

Actually, Perform has the DC of 30 for extraordinary performance. Thus you could just tip the above bard with 3d6 gold pieces. (What they would get per day in D&D.)




The biggest problem with dice rolls among players is that most players have no idea of the actual game rules.

[NegInfinity]

In other words, god-mod your way out of dice rolls, in a game based on dice rolls...

The Dice DCs are broken, that's the problem.

For example, they allow for arseplomancer build:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Arseplomancer

Or how about this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

A diplomancer that can top DC60, basically should be able to convince entire populace of BG to give their lives from them, and then overthrow the dukes.

It is nonsense and lazy playing.

If somebody rolls 80 bluff, then they better be able to provide bluff-80 worthy text. If they can't write a text that would convince a hostile stranger that they're a king of all elves - in one sentence - then I would assume the bluff wouldn't work.

Basically if you roll a dice that's cool and all, but if you're rolling a social skills now it is the time to write that amazingly convincing thing your character said, instead of treating it as an attack roll.

[Sun Wukong]

Or how about this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

A diplomancer that can top DC60, basically should be able to convince entire populace of BG to give their lives from them, and then overthrow the dukes.

That DC of 60 is only for those who are already friendly towards you. You ignore those who are Indifferent, Unfriendly, if not outright Hostile towards your character.

[King Leoric]

Or how about this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

A diplomancer that can top DC60, basically should be able to convince entire populace of BG to give their lives from them, and then overthrow the dukes.

That DC of 60 is only for those who are already friendly towards you. You ignore those who are Indifferent, Unfriendly, if not outright Hostile towards your character.

I tried to do that (rolled 84), and you know what happened? Right, I got killed after that by 'good' characters. They have not even tried to rp that.

So, just do not roll bluff because it works only if DM is present, as rules say.

[Sun Wukong]

So did you roll Bluff or Diplomacy? Edit: And what were you exactly trying to do? What was the situation, etc?