Assassin Spellcasting - Potential Qualifier for Pale Master?

[Incarnate]

I got thinking of such a build would be possible and even viable.
- Rogue / Assassin / Pale Master.

However there seems to be an issue, according to the wiki an assassin gets access to 3rd level spells at Assassin lvl 6, which is one of the requirement for Pale Master. This is also reflected in the nwn2b builder, but when I try to build it there it says it requires Arcane level 3 even when it should have arcane level 3.

As far as I know, being able to cast the 3rd level spells from the Assassin should work as a qualifier for the Pale Master, am I missing something here?

[NeonAvenger]

My understanding is that it is a game engine limitation.
The assassin doesn't have a proper spellbook and so doesn't count as a caster of any kind as far as the game is concerned.
I gather that there's a replacement spell system that has been built that would fix this and a host of other problems, but that it would cause a host of other problems as well so it's currently be held back.

[Deathgrowl]

Assassin doesn't actually have spell progression, so it can't qualify for palemaster.

And it would be a potential balance concern.

[Incarnate]

Assassin doesn't actually have spell progression, so it can't qualify for palemaster.

And it would be a potential balance concern.

They do indeed have spell progression - as pointed out above, its a game mechanic limitation.

[chad878262]

Assassin doesn't actually have spell progression, so it can't qualify for palemaster.

And it would be a potential balance concern.

They do indeed have spell progression - as pointed out above, its a game mechanic limitation.

You misunderstood...deathgrowl is simply stating they don't have a proper spellbook, they instead get feats allowing them to cast a few spells each level. Better than vanilla, but not the proper casting required to qualify for pale master.

Also, i echo DGs concern over balance...palemaster makes one immune to many of the things rogue types are weak against.

[Sun Wukong]

Your example, I suppose you could create a Rogue 11/Assassin 9/Pale Master 10... It would have a BAB of 18, so it would work great with the Crossbow feats, and you would still get 3 attacks in your first sneak attack flurry if you go for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. The undead could be used as meat shields to enable flanking for +2 AB and a lot more sneak attacks. Oh, and heal as a class skill and that natural armor increase.

But on the other hand, you do give up that 4th and possibly 5th PTWF sneak attack in the first flurry due to lower BAB. Your base saves are not boosted that much by levels of Pale Master and it is difficult if not possible to get Epic Dodge.



So if you want a rogue Pale Master, Rogue 12/Shadowdancer 3/Wizard 5/Pale Master 10 is probably your only choice. But your bab is even lower at 17. Not to mention that you only have 6d6 sneak attack dice and it doesn't double with Manyshot like Assassin's death attack dice would. You got 3d6 against criticla hit immunities... Part of me feels like you would be better off with a Rogue 20/Shadowdancer 10 build.

[Incarnate]

You misunderstood...deathgrowl is simply stating they don't have a proper spellbook, they instead get feats allowing them to cast a few spells each level. Better than vanilla, but not the proper casting required to qualify for pale master.

Also, i echo DGs concern over balance...palemaster makes one immune to many of the things rogue types are weak against.

Actually I did get what Deathgrowl said, hence why I said this is a game engine limitation, they would under normal circumstances have a spellbook and spell progression, even BG:TSCC's wiki state they get a spellbook: BG:TSCC's Assassin. Even D20srd.org state this D20srd.org: Assassin. Like I said, it is a game engine limitation, which really is a pity.

Considering its a game engine limitation, I'm sure it could be made to qualify for the Pale Master without actually giving it a spellbook from a game mechanics perspective - obviously this depends on what is actually possible with the game engine and its current build.

As for your concerns, everyone is vulnerable to critical hits, unless an immunity is gained somehow, same goes for being vulnerable to hold, paralysis, and stun effects - so it isn't just rogues.

[Incarnate]

Your example, I suppose you could create a Rogue 11/Assassin 9/Pale Master 10... It would have a BAB of 18, so it would work great with the Crossbow feats, and you would still get 3 attacks in your first sneak attack flurry if you go for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. The undead could be used as meat shields to enable flanking for +2 AB and a lot more sneak attacks. Oh, and heal as a class skill and that natural armor increase.

But on the other hand, you do give up that 4th and possibly 5th PTWF sneak attack in the first flurry due to lower BAB. Your base saves are not boosted that much by levels of Pale Master and it is difficult if not possible to get Epic Dodge.



So if you want a rogue Pale Master, Rogue 12/Shadowdancer 3/Wizard 5/Pale Master 10 is probably your only choice. But your bab is even lower at 17. Not to mention that you only have 6d6 sneak attack dice and it doesn't double with Manyshot like Assassin's death attack dice would. You got 3d6 against criticla hit immunities... Part of me feels like you would be better off with a Rogue 20/Shadowdancer 10 build.

BGTSCC: Pale Assassin Master Thoughts?
- BAB21 - Melee & Ranged
- Base AC 24
- 4APR
- Sneak Attack 5d6
- HP: 160
- CL21 - Caster DC18 | Necromancy 22 | Spell Level: 9'th | Epic Spell Penetration

[Deathgrowl]

You're off in your calculations. BGTSCC is not Kaedrin. Palemaster is 6/10 progression. You'd have effective 16 wizard level, and thus only level 8.

The DCs are just not worth it at all.

AB is terrible and you don't have any real damage...

I'm a bit at a loss for what you're trying to achieve... What is your vision here? Is this a caster? A spellblade? A warrior?

[chad878262]

A rogue 5 / Assassin 5 / Wizard 10 / Pale Master 10 Thoughts?
- BAB21 - Melee & Ranged (3+3+5+5=16)
- Base AC 24
- 4APR
- Sneak Attack 6d6
- HP: 160
- CL21 - Caster DC18 | Necromancy 22 | Spell Level: 9'th | Epic Spell Penetration

If you want a sneaky gish try W5/EK9/A8/AT8. Gets BAB21, 10 APR (PTWF) and 7d6 sneak damage. If you don't care about HiPS you could go W6/R4/EK10/AT10 using Feint and/or Summons to land sneak attacks.

[Incarnate]

You're off in your calculations. BGTSCC is not Kaedrin. Palemaster is 6/10 progression. You'd have effective 16 wizard level, and thus only level 8.

The DCs are just not worth it at all.

AB is terrible and you don't have any real damage...

I'm a bit at a loss for what you're trying to achieve... What is your vision here? Is this a caster? A spellblade? A warrior?

Actually, the caster level is 20 then, because PM only adds 5 in the calculation in the builder and you're also missing that it has practiced spellcaster. Wiz10+PM6+PSC = CL20.

An Assassin themed necromancer, where the touch attacks would be a sort of signature kill.

A rogue 5 / Assassin 5 / Wizard 10 / Pale Master 10 Thoughts?
- BAB21 - Melee & Ranged (3+3+5+5=16)
- Base AC 24
- 4APR
- Sneak Attack 6d6
- HP: 160
- CL21 - Caster DC18 | Necromancy 22 | Spell Level: 9'th | Epic Spell Penetration

If you want a sneaky gish try W5/EK9/A8/AT8. Gets BAB21, 10 APR (PTWF) and 7d6 sneak damage. If you don't care about HiPS you could go W6/R4/EK10/AT10 using Feint and/or Summons to land sneak attacks.

Its the TOTAL BAB, with the dex mod its 21.
Its an attempt to make an assassin themed necromancer.

[chad878262]

you're build will only get level 8 spells. CL16 for spell levels, psc doesnt give spell levels, only caster level.

[Incarnate]

you're build will only get level 8 spells. CL16 for spell levels, psc doesnt give spell levels, only caster level.

Arcane spellcasting level+1 isn't just caster level, but +1 to existing spellcasting class so this gives spell progression - not just caster level.

[chad878262]

No it doesn't.

[Incarnate]

No it doesn't.

In that case, either its broken or radically changed in that regard.
Because in NWN2 its Spellcaster progression, in 3.5 PnP version its "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" which is the same as +1 to spellcasting progression.

Also, if it doesn't add to spellcasting progression, you mind telling me how a wizard of level 10 can cast spells of 8'th level???

The only reason is that it adds to spellcasting progression, because otherwise it would only be able to cast level 5 spells.