Remove anti-mask scripts on soubar/UD merchants.

[Sun Wukong]

Counterpoint: this is a fantasy setting with shapeshifting and magical disguises. You can't even be sure the person in front of you is wearing their real face. In a way, at least the masked individual is being straightforward about hiding their nature.

You present a problem that is solved with magic. True Seeing.

Moreover, Soubar is a shady town. Sometimes you'll have customers that just don't want it to be known they're there. Perhaps they pay you extra; perhaps you're worried they'll yank that weapon out. There's lots of feasible reasons someone in a place like Soubar might just shrug and let the masked man do their business.

Alright, I take that you have never been to an actual shady town, or you just do not understand how necessary trust is for trade.

Thus, I think this is something you need to try out: wear a mask that covers your head, preferablly a black 'commando hood', and then grab a baseball bat, or a crowbar, or a big knife, or a shotgun if applicable, and head over to the nearest market to see what kind of reaction you create.

Honestly, I wish this forum would not have this particular rule:

4. Please refrain from discussing politics and religion on these forums.

[kleomenes]

I thought you could just say "my money is as good as anyone else's" and then they trade with you. Its what my Drow does.

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, but the problem is that people want to have and eat their cake. In otherwords, wear mask without having few points in social skills.

[NeonAvenger]

Moreover, Soubar is a shady town. Sometimes you'll have customers that just don't want it to be known they're there. Perhaps they pay you extra; perhaps you're worried they'll yank that weapon out. There's lots of feasible reasons someone in a place like Soubar might just shrug and let the masked man do their business.

If you've ever had to deal with "shady types", or even just read up on them, their rules are usually stricter and more strictly enforced than normal.
A regular shopkeeper may be concerned that there are people who could be casing their shop, selling goods of dubious quality, or perhaps items that other people may come looking for, a shop in a bad part of town knows many of their customers are going to be problems and takes the necessary precautions.
While there will be places that will deal with anyone they generally massively inflate their prices and lower their offers to protect themselves from the risks they're taking.

I feel that if your argument were something like "I'd like to see the anti-mask script removed to reduce metagaming; and the places where shady people do business, like Soubar, would be appropriate to do so." you would get more traction than saying "Removing the script makes things more realistic".

[Khazrak]

You present a problem that is solved with magic. True Seeing.

Which these shopkeepers all have available to them? A more paranoid one certainly would, but again, point stands: it's a real issue that exists. And shapechanging doesn't get bypassed with True Seeing; nor does someone being mind controlled to do business for someone else; you name it. There's magical solutions, but a regular shopkeep in Faerun has to understand they don't have all those solutions.

Alright, I take that you have never been to an actual shady town, or you just do not understand how necessary trust is for trade.

Thus, I think this is something you need to try out: wear a mask that covers your head, preferablly a black 'commando hood', and then grab a baseball bat, or a crowbar, or a big knife, or a shotgun if applicable, and head over to the nearest market to see what kind of reaction you create.

Condescension does not become you, Sun.

The "nearest market" is not Soubar. We're talking about a town with werecreatures, mind flayers, criminals, etc. Indeed, it seems to me that in such a place only people who are armed would want to be there in the first place. What are you going to do if you're not decked out in combat gear when that ogre decides he's going to smush a puny hummie after you bump into him?

I'm all for realism in fantasy. Indeed, my favorite fantasy settings are low magic, by and large, with low level caps and some focus on creating realistic trade and migration in the fluff. But Soubar, as presented in-game, is this scummy place. It reminds me more of a fantasy black market with everyone distrusting everyone else and everyone being ready to fight or ignore someone else's plights. (Not that a black market works like this IRL; I wouldn't know, I haven't been in a black market deal. But Soubar checks all the boxes for the stereotypical fantasy black market.)

Your neighborhood market would be Baldur's Gate, or the Friendly Arm Inn, or Beregost - but don't try to make false equivalencies between going to your local Wal-Mart with guns and a mask and going to a place where monsters and criminals hang out regularly with a mask and weapons.

[NegInfinity]

Alright, I take that you have never been to an actual shady town, or you just do not understand how necessary trust is for trade.

You're making a mistake of trying to bring RL here, plus DM team determine how soubar works and not you.

The town has monsters in it, and pretty much a small step away from having unmasked drow and devils walking in the open.

Illithids, for example, reproduce through sacrifice of sentient race. They get a sentient race member, implant a larva into it, it eats victim's head and the result becomes an Illithid.

This is the kind of creature that is gleefully waving its tentacles and enjoying the weather in soubar right now.

It way beyond "RL shady town" level.

I thought you could just say "my money is as good as anyone else's" and then they trade with you. Its what my Drow does.

Diplomacy investment.

Yeah, but the problem is that people want to have and eat their cake. In otherwords, wear mask without having few points in social skills.

Gimme an option to murder shopkeeper and I'll go for that one instead.

The problem is that shopkeepers are immortal dumb npcs with a script on them. They'll whine about mask and refuse to serve, but polymorph into a cornugon unmasked, and they'll gleefully sell stuff to you. "Oh, hai, Mr devil! I see your face, so it is all good! We'll happily sell our stuff to you! Oh, and try our toothpick to remove that chunk of flesh that stuck in your teeth!"

This script does not belong there. It makes sense on BG guards, though, but in places like sshamath it pretty much indicates that Mudd is some sort of pervert with "show your face" fetish.

[cosmic ray]

Illithids do not make a caravan stop go away.

But a hooded or veiled person does? ROFL

I suppose you could grab your baseball bat, or a crowbar, or a large knife, or a shotgun if that is more applicable, and go over to your local market while wearing a hood and a veil to mask your face. I would be most interested in hearing what happens next. ROFL, indeed.

Now... A mindflayer is really not anyone's preferred neighbour, but you can do trade with one. For example, various poisons and other curiosities from from the underdark could be acquired through one. Not to mention that it also provides a 'financial way' to get rid of some of the bandits cought by the passing caravans.

You're totally right.

It's not like mind flayers are alien-looking brain-eating monsters that can dominate minds at a whim, so you never know when you are safe near them or not.

Masks on the other hand, those can bring about judgment day.

Silly me.

[NegInfinity]

You're totally right.

It's not like mind flayers are alien-looking brain-eating monsters that can dominate minds at a whim, so you never know when you are safe near them or not.

Masks on the other hand, those can bring about judgment day.

Silly me.

Oh, this is easy. You're never safe near an illithid. They can extract brain from any creature that has one (basically it can kill anything with a brain in 2 rounds if it succeeds grapple checks - one check to attach a tentackle, one check to attach the rest of them, and it automatically extracts the brain.). They can also levitate and planeshift at will. They also drool constantly.

It is a fun critter to have around.

[Sun Wukong]

True Seeing:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

And that is actually in game too. If a Shapechanged tiefling gets close to someone with True Seeing, the combat log will list that the Shapechanged creature is a tiefling.

Condescension does not become you, Sun.

I am arguing with adults that possess childlike naivete when it comes to the world at large. Therefore, I am condescension personafied.

The "nearest market" is not Soubar. We're talking about a town with werecreatures, mind flayers, criminals, etc. Indeed, it seems to me that in such a place only people who are armed would want to be there in the first place. What are you going to do if you're not decked out in combat gear when that ogre decides he's going to smush a puny hummie after you bump into him?

It is indeed a place where those without anywhere else to go, tend to go. However, take notice of the fact how Soubar grows and dwindless according to the caravan season, and how caravans in this setting come with their own set of armed guards. Soubar is a caravan stopping point, and that makes it a place where you can trade goods and services that some might consider unsavory. In a degree it is a chaotic powder keg, so are you sure you want to make sparks fly in there? Because lets face it, no one bumps into an ogre by accident, not in Soubar. If the ogre turns you to goo, it was a problem that solved itself. If it doesn't, well, you can always hire someone to take care of the ogre bumping troublemaker somwhere outside of Soubar's walls.

Moreover, I would be curious to hear what makes a mask a crucial part of combat gear against the ogre in your example? Is it perhaps of a colour the ogre fears? Is laced with a scent that repels ogres? Does it come with a particularly intimidating design?

Gimme an option to murder shopkeeper and I'll go for that one instead.

And the caravan guards, I suppose.


Edit:

I wish you masked high strung paladins would just stay out of Soubar.

[NegInfinity]

Gimme an option to murder shopkeeper and I'll go for that one instead.

And the caravan guards, I suppose.

Yes. And the horse too.

I wish you masked high strung paladins would just stay out of Soubar.

Before acting condensing and calling people "naieve" you should first learn not to jump to wrong conclusion.

[Khazrak]

I wish you masked high strung paladins would just stay out of Soubar.

To be honest, I wouldn't let my paladin touch Soubar with a ten foot pole. It's one of those places a paladin doesn't belong unless there's a very specific mission that needs doing.

I am arguing with adults that possess childlike naivete when it comes to the world at large. Therefore, I am condescension personafied.

Booooyyyyy! *Lightsaber noises*

Soubar is a caravan stopping point, and that makes it a place where you can trade goods and services that some might consider unsavory. In a degree it is a chaotic powder keg, so are you sure you want to make sparks fly in there? Because lets face it, no one bumps into an ogre by accident, not in Soubar.

This is all well and good, but it's not unsavory because it's a caravan stopping point, if that's what you mean to say.

Consider this: that guy in a mask could be anything or anyone. Could be a very powerful mage or just a common thug that thinks masks are cool. Just as you wouldn't want to upset an ogre, would you press the guy in the mask too hard about the matter in a powder keg town like the one you've described? Mightn't that risk getting some trouble on your own head?

Trade may require trust, but in a place like Soubar I'm willing to say that the trust is "We're not going to cause each other any problems" and ends there.

Moreover, I would be curious to hear what makes a mask a crucial part of combat gear against the ogre in your example?

To be honest, I have no actual vested interest in the mask issue myself. I'm more of a headbands and helmets kind of player. But I know a lot of other players like the stereotypical "mysterious masked stranger" vibe, and if they want to do it on the surface, it's gonna be in Soubar. Might as well let them do business normally in that town in particular while wearing a mask.

[Sun Wukong]

Trade may require trust, but in a place like Soubar I'm willing to say that the trust is "We're not going to cause each other any problems" and ends there.

Thus your character spends those points in diplomacy. If not, you take off the mask to show that your character is not going to cause any problems.

Before acting condensing and calling people "naieve" you should first learn not to jump to wrong conclusion.

Unfortunately, you are arguing from a positition of naivete. Forum rule number 4 prevents me from expanding why exactly, if I you want, I can PM you an example.

[Khazrak]

Thus your character spends those points in diplomacy. If not, you take off the mask to show that your character is not going to cause any problems.

Wait- you mean this isn't a hypothetical thing, but there's already a system in place to allow Diplomacy rolls for whether you need the mask?

I thought it was hypothetical. That makes a lot more sense than there being no way to circumvent the issue.

[NegInfinity]

Thus your character spends those points in diplomacy. If not, you take off the mask to show that your character is not going to cause any problems.

Wait- you mean this isn't a hypothetical thing, but there's already a system in place to allow Diplomacy rolls for whether you need the mask?

I thought it was hypothetical. That makes a lot more sense than there being no way to circumvent the issue.

It is a real thing. You can roll diplomaty or intimidate. I think DC is 30. Unfortunately you can't just stab shopkeeper and make them bleed a little to make a point. They also check invisibility and complain that "they won't talk with ovices" (and you can't cast true seeing on a shopkeeper either)

Also, it is the same dialogue intro slapped on multiple different npcs, so in some cases it doesn't make sense.

And that was a reason for the complain. Mudd in Sshamath shouldn't care whether you have a mask or not, and same applies to shopkeepers in Soubar. That's due to the nature of "customers" they're dealing with... and due to nature of protection employed in the area.

[Sun Wukong]

A snowflake player character does not determine the nature of customers.