Remove "no xp on the other side" restriction.

[kleomenes]

As it is, the handful of times I have been to Soubar lately there have been drow pvp-baiting in the merchant area or nearby. I can watch from the EB tower and see drow dragging handfuls of undead right up to the merchants, threatening low level characters, and otherwise just 'hanging out' being their tough selves. I think there is a fine line between 'outlaw village' and 'drow friendly' and we are way on the other side of it.

It gets to the point, when you see the same names and know they've been killed before, that you just kinda ignore it altogether.

Drow ARE permitted in Soubar (Why wouldn't they be, when its got Ogres and Mindflayers?). Threatening Low level characters is the only problem RP I see there. Of course the EB used to do that sometimes too! But it was a cool experience when I had it.

[Planehopper]

Drow are permitted, right. However:

-You can be on the other side, but have some roleplay reason to be there (not just an excuse to grind or PvP). races from the surface and the Underdark, respectively, are not permitted to live on the other side without DM approval. Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Which, of course, I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they are following (hell, my character had meetings with Bregan there before). It is just a lot, and often, for this being the case.

[aaron22]

how very narrow minded. disappointed is hardly sufficient. expected much more perspective in the collection.

Call it however you please. Thats how it always was

what always was.. your lack of perspective and narrow-minded ideas? because i know that i was able to get xp in the UD so that cannot be it.

[mrm3ntalist]

how very narrow minded. disappointed is hardly sufficient. expected much more perspective in the collection.

Call it however you please. Thats how it always was

what always was.. your lack of perspective and narrow-minded ideas?

That too. If you would like to continue this, take it to pms. Then i can tell you exactly what i feel.

because i know that i was able to get xp in the UD so that cannot be it.

I am sorry to tell you your surface character shouldnt be to the ud in order to get XP.

[kleomenes]

People pick out which bits of lore they want to enforce based on their ooc preferences. Drow hatred is blown up while tiefling hatred is almost ignored.

No.

Drow hatred on the surface is lore based, and backed up by server lore made stronger by IC actions, a la Tolerance is Treason and other player-based initiatives. All of that was spurred by other IC actions by drow themselves.

While drow hatred on the surface is lore based, and has had things to reassert it over time (Tolerance is Treason, and the drow raids of a few years ago), its hard to dispute what Cosmic Ray is saying about OOC dislike of surface drow in some quarters and that tainting the approach to some of these issues.

Surface drow are a lore based thing, its just their presence in "civilisation" which is lore breaking. That is to say, Baldur's Gate and its patrolled areas.

The scope of the territory that the server covers has expanded massively since the Tolerance is Treason days, after all.

Its telling that PVP baiting is cited in this thread as a reason for the rules.

(note, I find the no grinding on the wrong side mechanical change to be quite elegant. My concern is with some of the OOC attitudes to cross barrier RP)

[Asmodea]

Just a random idea. But could RP XP be -increased- across borders if the mechnical XP is negated? It doesn't need to be huge but a bump up in the amount of XP gained for RP between surface and UD characters could encourage RP, discourage grinding and maybe help?

[Planehopper]

I would agree with that, there are some people who just don't like it, some of which is from actions in the past (whether they be irrational raids or irrational acceptance - both have ruffled feathers). Sure.

I really enjoyed my RP with Bregan with Zahven in the UD, and I enjoyed the RP surface-side with them as well. I had hoped that what we were RPing would lead to something more, but it sort of fell apart.

I think it is important to maintain the ability to do that. To RP on either side. Build relationships. Intrigue. I think this rule still allows for that, and that was my point (if poorly made).

Those folks baiting others into PVP with no clear goal, no clear RP'd reason other than exploration, pvp, or grinding are breaking the current rules. If they are there for something else, I've no issue at all.. but then why care about the new mechanic?

[NegInfinity]

It’s a great rule.

It is not a great rule.

If character want to go, it has a RP reason.

if my memory serves me right, the separation was imposed in the first place prior 2014, because the drow were too good at raiding areas near BG , and some of them didn't really like using PVP rules properly. Might as well be the right time to rethink it.

Basically, in the server development there is a very dangerous trend where somebody invents a problem, creates "solutioN" for the "problem", solution has bugs, and that cause problems to more people. So, it is as aaron said "punish the many for the irresponsibility of the few."

For example... the
"don't swap items while casting thing". Wasted quite a bit of time because of this.
People not getting xp while polymorphed - because of "no other side" script.
What else... wild shape my druid now damages me with positive damage. Then there were reports getting randomly fined by guards, etc.

Basically... any programmer knows that creating features produces bugs. In this case the "feature" is an attempt to fix a non-problem.

Basically, as a player I don't give a damn if somebody cheats. Catch them, ban them via cd key, assume they're dead. Done. I do give a damn when fixing a non-problem causes inconvenience for the players that weren't cheating/exploting/whatever to begin with. False positives shouldn't ever happen.

Now.

This is a RP server. Actions should have RP consequences. You went to the surface, you ran into paladin patrol you died. Whoops. Or you went to UD, ran into Drop patrol, you died. Also whoops. Possibly with a permastrike in both cases.

This is something I'd like to see, not a random brainless script making decision.
------------

Speaking of which, do you know what would be a good way to deter surface grinding, but allow combat xp?

Tweak dynamic spawn system to account for present of otherworlders and shut down spawns if they stay too long in one area.

Or make xp shutdown delayed. Like if a character spend too much time fighting in one area, their xp is zeroed until they go elsewhere, but only if they're "otherwolrders".

Either way would be much better than current solution. You'll still be able to explore the other side, but will have to move without "running around as headless chicken" thing.

I feel that there should be a possibility of exploring and getting rewards for it, because this is an RP server. I don't feel the same way about ability to grind, though.

[mrm3ntalist]

It’s a great rule.

It is not a great rule.

If character want to go, it has a RP reason.

That is not the case.

if my memory serves me right, the separation was imposed in the first place prior 2014, because the drow were too good at raiding areas near BG , and some of them didn't really like using PVP rules properly. Might as well be the right time to rethink it.

Your memory does not serve you right. The separation always exist. This isnt a new rule, nor a 2014 rule. That rule existed at least since 2012 when i joined this server.

[kleomenes]

I would agree with that, there are some people who just don't like it, some of which is from actions in the past (whether they be irrational raids or irrational acceptance - both have ruffled feathers). Sure.

I really enjoyed my RP with Bregan with Zahven in the UD, and I enjoyed the RP surface-side with them as well. I had hoped that what we were RPing would lead to something more, but it sort of fell apart.

I think it is important to maintain the ability to do that. To RP on either side. Build relationships. Intrigue. I think this rule still allows for that, and that was my point (if poorly made).

Those folks baiting others into PVP with no clear goal, no clear RP'd reason other than exploration, pvp, or grinding are breaking the current rules. If they are there for something else, I've no issue at all.. but then why care about the new mechanic?

Speaking for my own RP: At this point I'm considering a valid RP reason for my drow to be in Soubar to be "showing that we are accepted" and to move towards turning back the spate of Drow hunting done by the Northern Watch (At least in so far as it affects Bregan) as it threatens Bregan's interests. We literally held a Bregan meeting in the Winding Way the other weekend. It attracts business. It was my understanding Soubar was liberalised to promote this sort of RP.

There might be an issue if some (staff and players) don't see things the same way though.

I think I'm firmly in the camp that PVP abuse can (and should) be dealt with through the framework of the PVP / griefing ruleset.

[kleomenes]

Your memory does not serve you right. The separation always exist. This isnt a new rule, nor a 2014 rule. That rule existed at least since 2012 when i joined this server.

PRE 2014 he said, Mrm3ntalist.

And it was explained to me that is why the Surface/UD rules came into place originally - PVP raids in the early days of the server.

[NegInfinity]

That rule existed at least since 2012 when i joined this server.

Which means the events I heard of happened prior to 2012.

It was a really old thing/story. About drow ganking on people at dragon's bridge, shooting arrows in the head near FAI, etc.

I think there is something like 3 people total who would remember this, and you're not one of them.

Like kleomenes said... "early days of the server".

[aaron22]

I am sorry to tell you your surface character shouldnt be to the ud in order to get XP.

i had to walk there. i played it all out IC and my little group explored the areas and there we made contact with other orcs and drow. i have had interactions down there ever since. we did not go there with the intent of getting xp. we went there with OOC knowledge of it being there, but played it out IC as exploring. we had to kill many mobs and they gave very little xp. when down there we played alongside other UD players as a group. it was an awesome experience and was tense and fun. you would be taking that away from players who actually want to have these kind of experiences and a solid IG reason to do so.

i dont go there to grind out levels. I will still go there too. can't wait for the immersion breaking OOC /// oh.. im surface.. i can't go help you kill that spider-lich-hook horror-derro-pech///

an evil orc traveling to the UD is not absurd. nor should it be. i could also see red wizards going there as well and it be more than plausibly rational.

[mrm3ntalist]

Your memory does not serve you right. The separation always exist. This isnt a new rule, nor a 2014 rule. That rule existed at least since 2012 when i joined this server.

PRE 2014 he said, Mrm3ntalist.

And it was explained to me that is why the Surface/UD rules came into place originally - PVP raids in the early days of the server.

Ye, so that was known to him, or should have been. He chose to play on this server with that in mind. There is nothing new today on that matter nor this mechanic rule changes anything.

[NegInfinity]

Your memory does not serve you right. The separation always exist. This isnt a new rule, nor a 2014 rule. That rule existed at least since 2012 when i joined this server.

PRE 2014 he said, Mrm3ntalist.

And it was explained to me that is why the Surface/UD rules came into place originally - PVP raids in the early days of the server.

Ye, so that was known to him, or should have been. He chose to play on this server with that in mind. There is nothing new today on that matter nor this mechanic rule changes anything.

That's called being stubborn.

Rules and features should exist for a reason. If there's no reason for the rule, it should die. See YAGNI/KISS principles. "The rule always existed" is not a good reason.