My observations after "no grind at the other side" Upgrade

[adobongmanok]

Right. I usually proofread my post, but I made mistake on this one. Yes, you need RP reason to go to surface. So you may go to the surface, with just a RP reason to do so.

In case you missed this part:

These rules are quite restrictive and they do limit IC-interaction possibilities.

Say for Drow-X has never been to the Surface, so he wants to go explore the surface, but as per the OOC rules this player has to find a different valid RP-wise and lore-wise, but since his character Drow-X has never been to the surface, and knows no-one there then he has no IC-valid reason to go there.

ANY IC-reason for going cross-realm should be considered a valid reason, with the exceptions of the reason being an excuse for an OOC reason such as PvP-baiting, other types of OOC malign behaviour.

Right. Honestly, that one is the gray area that most people are saying. It's hard to have a definitive rule that would cater to everyone. As much as I understand your sentiments, do mind that others are playing the server as well. Thus, a compromise could be made perhaps.

As I keep advocating earlier, perhaps expanding the neutral zone so that these "drow adventurers" will have the chance to see the surface, yet do not suffer the consequences of having to be called out and roll out a DM team on that individual. Maybe somewhere in these neutral zones, there will be an npc with deep hatred on Drow to give that drow an IC realization of the truth.

[Incarnate]

ANY IC-reason for going cross-realm should be considered a valid reason, with the exceptions of the reason being an excuse for an OOC reason such as PvP-baiting, other types of OOC malign behaviour.

Right. Honestly, that one is the gray area that most people are saying. It's hard to have a definitive rule that would cater to everyone. As much as I understand your sentiments, do mind that others are playing the server as well. Thus, a compromise could be made perhaps.

As I keep advocating earlier, perhaps expanding the neutral zone so that these "drow adventurers" will have the chance to see the surface, yet do not suffer the consequences of having to be called out and roll out a DM team on that individual. Maybe somewhere in these neutral zones, there will be an npc with deep hatred on Drow to give that drow an IC realization of the truth.

Yes, exactly others are playing the server, hence why it shouldn't be as restrictive.

As it has been pointed out before, why should greater number be punished because of select few who ruin it for others? These players that have OOC malign behaviour should be dealth with OOC'ly, rather than enforce rules and mechanics that "punish" everyone who'd have a IC/RP-desire to go cross-realm with very legitimate reasons behind them. Its clear the they don't want abusive behaviour, which no one should be interested in on the server.

These rules really needs to be re-evaluated and the reasons for even considering them in the first place as well, a proper solution to deal with the problematic issues/players - which most likely would be handling them directly and accordingly.

[adobongmanok]

Yes, exactly others are playing the server, hence why it shouldn't be as restrictive.

As it has been pointed out before, why should greater number be punished because of select few who ruin it for others? These players that have OOC malign behaviour should be dealth with OOC'ly, rather than enforce rules and mechanics that "punish" everyone who'd have a desire to go cross-realm very legitimate reasons. Its clear the they don't want abusive behaviour, which no one should be interested in on the server.

These rules really needs to be re-evaluated and the reasons for even considering them as well, a proper solution to deal with the problematic issues/players - which most likely would be handling directly accordingly.

Right. I think rules must be changed to improve the game play of the server not just UD but also the surface as well.

[Planehopper]

The upperdark IS the underdark. The difference between upperdark, middledark and underdark is DEPTH, not SOCIETY. It is as much the realm of the drow, duergar and mindflayers as the middle- or underdark is, and the word underdark can mean either the underdark proper, or those three levels collectively.

The surfacers have access to HALF of the underdark, namely the upperdark, and a variety of RP/loot/xp possibilities. The underdarkers have access to TWO underground dungeons, one of which is connected to that RP black hole, the netherese maze. The two towns where underdarkers can be IC are not a neutral zone according to the rules, as far as I'm aware, meaning that they can be questioned by DMs and sent back to the underdark, and they have no neutral zones connecting to them like the surfacers find all the way from the Troll Hills to anywhere in the upperdark.

Drow players have submitted applications for surface guildhalls and settlements and were always told by the DM staff that that was not something they wanted to allow.

You are either misinformed about player-DM interaction and IG server geography, or you're trying to pull wool over people's eyes.

Are you going to address the reality of the server state, or the fantasy world you describe?

Well, first, I am not going to address anything other than my own opinions, based off of my experience here over the past 10 years as player and previously as a DM (when the UD was developed, etc). I am a moderator, not an admin or DM, and my opinion is as a player - nothing more.

The point made about the Upperdark being the Underdark is being conflated. Yes, geography or lore wise, the Upperdark is a portion of the Underdark. No one is arguing that, I dont think. That is irrelevant here, however, as the Upperdark was made and implemented as the neutral in-between, which is what I said, and what actually applies.

You see, this is not a real breathing world, but a server with size and space limitations. The designers, admins, and DMs of this world chose to make the Upperdark the zone of play that allowed for the most interaction (a more gray middle ground opposed to the two stark differences of surface and Underdark). The zone could be called something other than upperdark if it bothers your sensibilities, but the fact that it was put in play as a neutral area would remain.

Your experience with (or anecdotes about) the DMs aside, I know that there is a process in place for allowing permanent residency in the opposite realm (surface or UD), and I don't for a minute believe that the DMs would arbitrarily rule out the establishment of anything that was based and built on solid RP.

Lets keep this about the topic at hand, and not try to accuse others of ignorance, lying, or pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. I have no reason or desire to do that and am only speaking from experience here. If this devolves into another thread of personal issues it will just be locked again.

[NegInfinity]

I think the upperdark should give no XP to surfacers. What I wouldn't want is a return to the days of Drows running along the Trade Way.

I'd prefer "no loot on the other side", "allow combat xp on both sides", and "upperdark accessible to both worlds".

I would like to have more permastrikes and IC consequences, though. Not brainless mechanical barriers. It could make sense to flag trespassers for DMs to act on it, for example.

[adobongmanok]

You see, this is not a real breathing world, but a server with size and space limitations. The designers, admins, and DMs of this world chose to make the Upperdark the zone of play that allowed for the most interaction (a more gray middle ground opposed to the two stark differences of surface and Underdark). The zone could be called something other than upperdark if it bothers your sensibilities, but the fact that it was put in play as a neutral area would remain.

Right agreed. Then some rule changes can be made though to address these issues? As cosmic ray harshly points out, Upperdark is lore-wise underdark just renamed due to its depth. The server created designated Upperdark to be neutral so that

"surface adventurers will be able to experience the caves and tunnels of underdark without repercussions of calling a DM team, and hopefully increase RP in UD along the way."

So, how about a UD version of that where

"UD adventurers will be able to experience the surface without repercussions of calling a DM team, since sometimes UD is empty they can adventure on surface and increase RP."

Hence, expand the neutral zones.

EDIT: Quotes again.

[NegInfinity]

The goal shouldn't be to multiply the interactions between surface and UD characters, the two should be set apart more firmly then they are now, with how easy it is to travel from one to another.

This doesn't make sense.

The goal of RP server shouldn't be to prevent people from interacting with each other.

The idea is supposed to make interesting stories in the process. Let the people cross over. Make them die or run into dangers on the other side. This would be the more reasonable approach.

---------

Basically, the focus should be on making the world look real.

When you have a script that disables your combat xp, that does not make the world look real and reminds you that this is all a decoration with no actual life going on.

However, when you run into an armed group on other side, things suddenly became believable and very interesting.

With all that in mind, I think script-based incentives to "enforce" something are misguided at best. Create consequences instead of mechanical barriers.

[cosmic ray]

Well, first, I am not going to address anything other than my own opinions, based off of my experience here over the past 10 years as player and previously as a DM (when the UD was developed, etc). I am a moderator, not an admin or DM, and my opinion is as a player - nothing more.

The point made about the Upperdark being the Underdark is being conflated. Yes, geography or lore wise, the Upperdark is a portion of the Underdark. No one is arguing that, I dont think. That is irrelevant here, however, as the Upperdark was made and implemented as the neutral in-between, which is what I said, and what actually applies.

You see, this is not a real breathing world, but a server with size and space limitations. The designers, admins, and DMs of this world chose to make the Upperdark the zone of play that allowed for the most interaction (a more gray middle ground opposed to the two stark differences of surface and Underdark). The zone could be called something other than upperdark if it bothers your sensibilities, but the fact that it was put in play as a neutral area would remain.

Your experience with (or anecdotes about) the DMs aside, I know that there is a process in place for allowing permanent residency in the opposite realm (surface or UD), and I don't for a minute believe that the DMs would arbitrarily rule out the establishment of anything that was based and built on solid RP.

Lets keep this about the topic at hand, and not try to accuse others of ignorance, lying, or pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. I have no reason or desire to do that and am only speaking from experience here. If this devolves into another thread of personal issues it will just be locked again.

We all get that the upperdark was created, at least in part, for that purpose. No one has been contesting that, and I think most people think it's a good thing, although Valefort seems not to agree.

What I am saying, and I'm not alone in this, is that it isn't fair to limit that neutral zone to just the upperdark, as that gives surfacers wanting to come down a chance to do it, but it gives no underdarker the same chance.

You and Flasmix have pointed out that the ogre cave and that other dungeon whose name now escapes me are OOC-neutral areas for underdarkers, which is true, but compare those two dungeons and their possibilities to the whole of the upperdark and its possibilities.

Why can't the same thing be created on the surface side by side with the upperdark? I can't see a reason for this other than there being a desire to keep the underdarkers - let's be honest, it's all about the drow - down in the underdark by any means necessary, for any justification that you can think of. Otherwise, there are many areas on the surface that aren't patrolled by people who would keep drow or duergar out and that we could work with.

Regarding what you believe about the DMs' answers to applications, that is not really relevant. Those answers don't need your belief to be factual. Since they were never sent to my account directly, I'm not going to show them to you, but I'll ask certain players if they can come here and post them for all the doubting Thomases out there. Can you make a plural of Thomas?

I didn't accuse of you lying. I said "either or" - you will know which, not me, but I'll believe what you say. I didn't use the word "ignorant" either, but I could have, since there is nothing bad about that word that I can find. I'm ignorant of many things myself. There is no bad connotation with that simply factual word. I wasn't trying to offend you with that, but I'll admit that the bit with "lalalala" was a bit childish of me.

[chad878262]

Regarding grinding in Upperdark... Pretty simple solution is to make it more difficult. Currently it is probably the easiest spot of equivalent CR on the server. Make it more dangerous than comparable Underdark/Surface areas and it stops being selected as a level grinding location and more of a spot people go specifically to meet up for RP purposes. Compare Kro as a boss to the Mountain Ogre boss who casts Gate and any number of other nasty spells...Compare spiders and carrion crawlers rendered harmless by deathward to Mountain Ogre Magi and Barbarians and you see that in two areas very near to each other in terms of transitions that give the same XP but have vastly different difficulty levels.

[NegInfinity]

Regarding grinding in Upperdark... Pretty simple solution is to make it more difficult. Currently it is probably the easiest spot of equivalent CR on the server. Make it more dangerous than comparable Underdark/Surface areas and it stops being selected as a level grinding location and more of a spot people go specifically to meet up for RP purposes. Compare Kro as a boss to the Mountain Ogre boss who casts Gate and any number of other nasty spells...Compare spiders and carrion crawlers rendered harmless by deathward to Mountain Ogre Magi and Barbarians and you see that in two areas very near to each other in terms of transitions that give the same XP but have vastly different difficulty levels.

Uh, how about a no?

Upperdark should stay as is, so UD characters will have access to larger variety of locations.

No need to turn every area into a home of another superboss from hell.

[aaron22]

just some opinions. and this is not what i think is best for me either

-the upperdark should be part of the UD. treated as such in any conceivable mechanic.

-the transitions between the UpD and Surface should be way harder and longer to get through. DM intervention aside.

-the two should live in much more isolation from each other. that less is more in this regard to RP. better fit to provide a setting that feels "to me" more like the forgotten realms. That the few times RP is done, will be eventful. i would hate to see the RP become so commonplace that it devolves into seeing "matron's famous cookie recipe" at the illmater bake sale.

-this does not mean that i think xp should be denied. it should still count. maybe even enhanced as this should be somewhat desirable yet next to impossible.

[aaron22]

No need to turn every area into a home of another superboss from hell.

that sounds like an awesome idea to me.

[NegInfinity]

No need to turn every area into a home of another superboss from hell.

that sounds like an awesome idea to me.

Let's start with BG, then.
How does level 60 demon-touched dire rat in the the dock warehouse sound?

[cosmic ray]

Regarding grinding in Upperdark... Pretty simple solution is to make it more difficult. Currently it is probably the easiest spot of equivalent CR on the server. Make it more dangerous than comparable Underdark/Surface areas and it stops being selected as a level grinding location and more of a spot people go specifically to meet up for RP purposes. Compare Kro as a boss to the Mountain Ogre boss who casts Gate and any number of other nasty spells...Compare spiders and carrion crawlers rendered harmless by deathward to Mountain Ogre Magi and Barbarians and you see that in two areas very near to each other in terms of transitions that give the same XP but have vastly different difficulty levels.

Uh, how about a no?

Upperdark should stay as is, so UD characters will have access to larger variety of locations.

No need to turn every area into a home of another superboss from hell.

lol

Yeah, that's the opposite of what we have been saying, chad.

The upperdark is GOOD as it is now. It's the surface, or part of it, that IS NOT.

Well, it's "good" within the limits of the anti-rp constraints, that is. Real goodness would come without any such constraints, but no one is asking for those to be lifted anymore. We're asking for a better compromise.

[Snarfy]

A good analogy would be, surfacers get to play in Disney World.

Funny you should say this, as I was just about to go on a rant about the 'good old days' when going to the UD as a surfacer was actually a big deal, and when players didn't treat going to the UD as if it was some frivolous trip to an amusement park where they could skip merrily through and win prizes(loot) on a whim without fear of any IC repercussions.... which was pretty much how it became when the Upperdark went in, and surfacers started trundling down there as if it was the newest tourist destination. Not to mention that they could just waffle on any PvP scenario they may encounter with drow, take their PvP-out, and go on mashing their keyboards grind-happily. Yawn.

Once upon a time, going to the UD actually required some serious IC moxy, and planning, and only the most capable(or foolhardy) surface character would even dream of attempting it. Yes, it was considered that dangerous. Spelunking for treasure was hardly IC motivation enough to trek down to the UD, because players knew that there was a 50/50 chance that their characters were going to get killed or captured.

And now... players are upset because they feel the restrictions on grinding/looting are somehow inhibiting their ability to RP? Give. Me. A. Break.

If it were up to me... ( ) ... hmm, nevermind.

The only way I would advocate for removing the grind xp/loot mechanics is if surfacers were made KOS anywhere in the Upperdark or Underdark. Maybe, juuuust maybe, it would put the fear back into surfacers who choose to go down into those places.