My observations after "no grind at the other side" Upgrade

[Fury_US]

I suppose I am just confused by all of this, more than anything. It's a small mechanical addition that enforces a rule that's been in place since 2012. Which, if I'm reading everything correctly, means those speaking loudest of the injustice of it all have been perfectly fine with a rule- so long as they could regularly break it.

To argue about this one small addition being anti-RP, I simply cannot see it. You're still going to receive RP xp, so in fact- I would think this facilitates *actual RP happening*? Regardless, absolutely nothing stops anyone from RPing. Nothing is stopping your character from exploring, or interacting with other characters. All it's doing is mechanically enforcing a rule that has already been in place against behaviors that have traditionally been way, way more OOC than it's ever been IC. That simple.

Now, I'm of a personal opinion that grinding and looting are heinous exercises in utter mindless drudgery that lose every amount of viable RP reasons after being done once. No matter how much you force out some reason, and regardless of what mindless chit-chat you engage in as you do it, by the time you've wandered a dungeon for the fifthy-eleventh time, your purpose in being there is for the wholly OOC, yet basically necessary reason of gaining loot, or gaining XP. To say one mechanical enforcement of the rules is breaking Lore, or stifling RP is, by that logic, invalid- it does neither. If individuals believe RP and and Lore are being stifled, I would think those discussions belong in their own seperate thread, as an entirely seperate issue.

In all honesty, the simplest solution I could think of is to actually remove the concept of neutral territory for XP and loot gains entirely. Let those in the Underdark have the Upperdark as valid grind zones. There are any number of threads I've seen where the surfacers are raving about how the Upperdark is the best and easiest loot gains- which is, in fact a wholly OOC reason for being there. In that regard, surfacers have been exploiting OOC behaviors way more than the UDers have been travelling to the surface for these things (I personally have never encountered a Drow at the Xvarts circle of death, for instance). It seems to be an easier solution than having to go through and increase the difficulties of the encounters in the area, but I'm not a dev, so I don't know what goes into these things.

[aaron22]

No need to turn every area into a home of another superboss from hell.

that sounds like an awesome idea to me.

Let's start with BG, then.
How does level 60 demon-touched dire rat in the the dock warehouse sound?

so i have two wishes even? wow.. how about a third?

[Snarfy]

In that regard, surfacers have been exploiting OOC behaviors way more than the UDers have been travelling to the surface for these things (I personally have never encountered a Drow at the Xvarts circle of death, for instance).

This All this belly-aching going on, over a mechanical implementation that reinforces the actual setting, is just silly.

My main(as well as my 12 alts, even my Imaskari) has always considered travelling to the UD to be utterly suicidal. Having been playing since a time when the UD was like this, circa 2012-2016...



... to this, circa 2017...



... honestly, I don't even know how to interact with UD travelling surfacers anymore.

[cosmic ray]

And now... players are upset because they feel the restrictions on grinding/looting are somehow inhibiting their ability to RP? Give. Me. A. Break.

I suppose I am just confused by all of this, more than anything. It's a small mechanical addition that enforces a rule that's been in place since 2012. Which, if I'm reading everything correctly, means those speaking loudest of the injustice of it all have been perfectly fine with a rule- so long as they could regularly break it.

To argue about this one small addition being anti-RP, I simply cannot see it. You're still going to receive RP xp, so in fact- I would think this facilitates *actual RP happening*? Regardless, absolutely nothing stops anyone from RPing. Nothing is stopping your character from exploring, or interacting with other characters. All it's doing is mechanically enforcing a rule that has already been in place against behaviors that have traditionally been way, way more OOC than it's ever been IC. That simple.

Now, I'm of a personal opinion that grinding and looting are heinous exercises in utter mindless drudgery that lose every amount of viable RP reasons after being done once. No matter how much you force out some reason, and regardless of what mindless chit-chat you engage in as you do it, by the time you've wandered a dungeon for the fifthy-eleventh time, your purpose in being there is for the wholly OOC, yet basically necessary reason of gaining loot, or gaining XP. To say one mechanical enforcement of the rules is breaking Lore, or stifling RP is, by that logic, invalid- it does neither. If individuals believe RP and and Lore are being stifled, I would think those discussions belong in their own seperate thread, as an entirely seperate issue.

In all honesty, the simplest solution I could think of is to actually remove the concept of neutral territory for XP and loot gains entirely. Let those in the Underdark have the Upperdark as valid grind zones. There are any number of threads I've seen where the surfacers are raving about how the Upperdark is the best and easiest loot gains- which is, in fact a wholly OOC reason for being there. In that regard, surfacers have been exploiting OOC behaviors way more than the UDers have been travelling to the surface for these things (I personally have never encountered a Drow at the Xvarts circle of death, for instance). It seems to be an easier solution than having to go through and increase the difficulties of the encounters in the area, but I'm not a dev, so I don't know what goes into these things.

Okay, then imagine if we eliminated all the dungeons and hostile zones from the game.

Since it's all about RP, we might as well, no? It should be no hindrance to roleplayers and, in fact, it would FACILITATE roleplay.

I mean, it's not like we're playing adventurers who like to seek action and treasure in dungeons and foreign dangerous places in a game designed to let people play adventurers who like to seek action and treasure in dungeons and foreign dangerous places, right?

Silly, silly us.

Oh, wait...

The disconnect from reality is real here. Is it chilly up there in the stratosphere?

[MrPsion]

No xp in the wrong area is an example of negative reinforcement because the negative stimulus (no xp) is removed as a result of the desired response (go back to where you belong.) Positive reinforcement (reward for desired behavior) is proven to be more effective. This route also allows UD characters to cope with the big empty that is a natural result of an RP environment stretched thin by attempts to do it all. Perhaps group level restrictions can be more forgiving or loot timers be reduced when you are in your turf. I understand that suggestion will be shot down but I'm having trouble coming up with viable positive reinforcement, other suggestions in this vein are very welcome.

[NegInfinity]

No xp in the wrong area is an example of negative reinforcement because the negative stimulus (no xp) is removed as a result of the desired response (go back to where you belong.) Positive reinforcement (reward for desired behavior) is proven to be more effective. This route also allows UD characters to cope with the big empty that is a natural result of an RP environment stretched thin by attempts to do it all. Perhaps group level restrictions can be more forgiving or loot timers be reduced when you are in your turf. I understand that suggestion will be shot down but I'm having trouble coming up with viable positive reinforcement, other suggestions in this vein are very welcome.

Yup.

The problem with the script is that the approach is wrong.

It tries to herd the players into desired beahvior by enforcing mechanical barriers that makes no sense and go against the spirit of RP server.

The correct approach would be enforcing IC consequences and rewarding lore-appropriate behavior, like not being friends with drow.

People shouldn't go to the other side because it is dangerous, and not because xp doesn't work there.

Basically, wrong implementation. Very, very, very wrong implementation.

[Snarfy]

Okay, then imagine if we eliminated all the dungeons and hostile zones from the game.

The disconnect from reality is real here.

If we're going to equate the idea of eliminating all dungeons and hostile zones with this particular mechanical limitation, then I'll just one-up you and say: yes, the disconnect is absolutely here.

[cosmic ray]

Okay, then imagine if we eliminated all the dungeons and hostile zones from the game.

The disconnect from reality is real here.

If we're going to equate the idea of eliminating all dungeons and hostile zones with this particular mechanical limitation, then I'll just one-up you and say: yes, the disconnect is absolutely here.

You, Fury and others make the argument that not being able to grind and loot should in no way hinder underdarkers who want to roleplay on the surface.

I say, if that is true for underdarkers on the surface, then it must surely be true for all characters across the server.

Dot, dot, link.

But in latin it's just called reductio ad absurdum.

[Incarnate]

Okay, then imagine if we eliminated all the dungeons and hostile zones from the game.

The disconnect from reality is real here.

If we're going to equate the idea of eliminating all dungeons and hostile zones with this particular mechanical limitation, then I'll just one-up you and say: yes, the disconnect is absolutely here.

Thats not the point cosmic ray was trying to get accross.

This is really what cosmic ray was trying to get accross.

we're playing adventurers who like to seek action and treasure in dungeons and foreign dangerous places in a game designed to let people play adventurers who like to seek action and treasure in dungeons and foreign dangerous places

...and the UD/Surface rules and enforced |no xp|no loot| mechanics just doesn't make sense to have in place - that is what cosmic ray pointed out!

[Snarfy]

You, Fury and others make the argument that not being able to grind and loot should in no way hinder underdarkers who want to roleplay on the surface.

Actually, my argument is that not being able to grind/loot should in no way hinder surfacers who want to roleplay in the underdark.

I say, if that is true for underdarkers on the surface, then it must surely be true for all characters across the server.

I agree! Which is also why I said...

The only way I would advocate for removing the grind xp/loot mechanics is if surfacers were made KOS anywhere in the Upperdark or Underdark.

In other words, I'd be all for lifting this restriction if the same rules applied to surfacers in the UD as they do to UD'ers on the surface. IMHO, this would be a far better way to reinforce the setting than a mechanical one. Players want to grind/loot in the UD? Cool beans, that's fine with me... but I don't believe they should be able to hide behind any rules and waltz away from a group of UD'ers who find them as they mindlessly kill the denizens/pilfer the riches(?) of the Underdark.

[NegInfinity]

If we're going to equate the idea of eliminating all

Snarfy, the problem with the measure - and the rule - is that it approaches the problem incorrectly.

"You shouldn't go to the other side because is is dangerous" dosn't work.
"You should do this and not that" doesn't work either.

If something is dangerous, then my character should be able to go there and see it.
If something shouldn't be done "because you'll be punished", then my character SHOULD be punished if he or she does that one thing.

This is how it should be enforced - you go to the other side and bump into a patrol. You roll a good drow and are treated as abomination by other drow and get killed. You befriend a drow as a surfacer - and you're hanged along with your new friend.

This will create RP atmosphere, this will create stories, and this will make the world feel alive.

And a dumb mechanical script that shuts down your xp... simply reduces BG to a non-rp grind server with weekly "who's got better powerbuild" competition. This kind of direction should not be allowed here.

[cosmic ray]

You, Fury and others make the argument that not being able to grind and loot should in no way hinder underdarkers who want to roleplay on the surface.

Actually, my argument is that not being able to grind/loot should in no way hinder surfacers who want to roleplay in the underdark.

I say, if that is true for underdarkers on the surface, then it must surely be true for all characters across the server.

I agree! Which is also why I said...

The only way I would advocate for removing the grind xp/loot mechanics is if surfacers were made KOS anywhere in the Upperdark or Underdark.

In other words, I'd be all for lifting this restriction if the same rules applied to surfacers in the UD as they do to UD'ers on the surface. IMHO, this would be a far better way to reinforce the setting than a mechanical one. Players want to grind/loot in the UD? Cool beans, that's fine with me... but I don't believe they should be able to hide behind any rules and waltz away from a group of UD'ers who find them as they mindlessly kill the denizens/pilfer the riches(?) of the Underdark.

Well, I agree with that.

Everyone being KoS everywhere except in areas tightly patrolled by guards would be realistic.

And everyone being able to access any area without OOC constraints (but IC ones still applying).

That would be the best thing imo. But the people with the power to make these changes don't want to make them, so when you can't have the ideal world, you instead try and settle for a better compromise, which is what I and others are trying to reach here.

Except, instead of looking at a better compromise, the DMs and their player-side friends prefer to instead worsen the compromise by regressively suggesting the surfacers lose access to the upperdark.

I mean, that's THE ONE THING you're doing right. Don't change THAT.

[mrm3ntalist]

Except, instead of looking at a better compromise, the DMs and their player-side friends prefer to instead worsen the compromise by regressively suggesting the surfacers lose access to the upperdark.

You lost me here...

[Incarnate]

We can agree on that Underdark is a seriously dangerous place for a surface race, right?
We can agree on that Surface is a seriously dangerous place for UD race, right?
We can agree on that crossing realms will most likely mean IC-consequences, right?
We can agree on that IC-matters should be dealt with IC'ly, right?
We can agree on that OOC-matters should be dealt with OOC'ly, right?
We can agree on that server has a strong emphasis on rp, right?
We can agree on that grinding breaks immersiveness and rp, right?
We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?
We can agree on that IC-interaction progresses rp and their stories, right?


If we agreed on the above then we should also be able to agree on that the rules that disallow travelling cross-realm is counter-productive and it only achieves limiting IC-interactions cross-realm, thus limiting the story and rp progression cross-realm, right?

[aaron22]

We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?

i can agree but only to an extent. it is one thing to have hostile RP between two races that only hear stories of each other and quite another to stand around the FAI telling "did you see..." stories.