My observations after "no grind at the other side" Upgrade

[Incarnate]

We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?

i can agree but only to an extent. it is one thing to have hostile RP between two races that only hear stories of each other and quite another to stand around the FAI telling "did you see..." stories.

The latter part would be god-modding, when the drow is KoS - which Surface races should be to in Underdark too - or both shouldn't be. Then if someone decides to report your character IC'ly for not attempting to kill it, then it would still further the story of these characters.

[aaron22]

We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?

i can agree but only to an extent. it is one thing to have hostile RP between two races that only hear stories of each other and quite another to stand around the FAI telling "did you see..." stories.

The latter part would be god-modding, when the drow is KoS - which Surface races should be to in Underdark. Then if someone decides to report your character IC'ly for not attempting to kill it, then it would still further the story of these characters.

is it easier on your eyes to look at the game through rose-colored glasses?

[Sun Wukong]

We can agree on that Underdark is a seriously dangerous place for a surface race, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that Surface is a seriously dangerous place for UD race, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that crossing realms will most likely mean IC-consequences, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that IC-matters should be dealt with IC'ly, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that OOC-matters should be dealt with OOC'ly, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that server has a strong emphasis on rp, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that grinding breaks immersiveness and rp, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?

Nope.

We can agree on that IC-interaction progresses rp and their stories, right?

Nope.

[adobongmanok]

We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?

i can agree but only to an extent. it is one thing to have hostile RP between two races that only hear stories of each other and quite another to stand around the FAI telling "did you see..." stories.

The latter part would be god-modding, when the drow is KoS - which Surface races should be to in Underdark too - or both shouldn't be. Then if someone decides to report your character IC'ly for not attempting to kill it, then it would still further the story of these characters.

I think you missed out the point Aaron was making. (Correct me if I'm wrong), but his point was that the current culture of surfacers of tolerating Drows are at fault as well. Thus, when they see a drow, they just stand there and watch. When they go to the FAI campfire, they go like, "did you see..." attitude.

And I think it is also one of the factors as to why the game mechanics was implemented.

[Fury_US]

We can agree on that Underdark is a seriously dangerous place for a surface race, right?
We can agree on that Surface is a seriously dangerous place for UD race, right?
We can agree on that crossing realms will most likely mean IC-consequences, right?
We can agree on that IC-matters should be dealt with IC'ly, right?
We can agree on that OOC-matters should be dealt with OOC'ly, right?
We can agree on that server has a strong emphasis on rp, right?
We can agree on that grinding breaks immersiveness and rp, right?
We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?
We can agree on that IC-interaction progresses rp and their stories, right?


If we agreed on the above then we should also be able to agree on that the rules that disallow travelling cross-realm is counter-productive and it only achieves limiting IC-interactions cross-realm, thus limiting the story and rp progression cross-realm, right?

But... there is nothing disallowing travelling?

[Incarnate]

We can agree on that Underdark is a seriously dangerous place for a surface race, right?
We can agree on that Surface is a seriously dangerous place for UD race, right?
We can agree on that crossing realms will most likely mean IC-consequences, right?
We can agree on that IC-matters should be dealt with IC'ly, right?
We can agree on that OOC-matters should be dealt with OOC'ly, right?
We can agree on that server has a strong emphasis on rp, right?
We can agree on that grinding breaks immersiveness and rp, right?
We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?
We can agree on that IC-interaction progresses rp and their stories, right?


If we agreed on the above then we should also be able to agree on that the rules that disallow travelling cross-realm is counter-productive and it only achieves limiting IC-interactions cross-realm, thus limiting the story and rp progression cross-realm, right?

But... there is nothing disallowing travelling?

There most certainly is - there is a rule in place that disallow travelling cross-realm.
It quoted somewhere in this thread - but basically if you don't have a valid rp reason, then you're not allowed cross-realm - in those rules various reasons that under normal circumstances that would be considere legitimate and valid reason, aren't considered as such, for instance exploring isn't a valid reason.

[NegInfinity]

We can agree on that IC-interaction between a UD and a Surface race would still progress their stories and rp, right?

i can agree but only to an extent. it is one thing to have hostile RP between two races that only hear stories of each other and quite another to stand around the FAI telling "did you see..." stories.

I think there should be an IC incentive to encourage lore-appropriate behavior, and not a mechanical barrier.

Also, I think it would make sense if NPCs occasionally performed a crackdown on drow and drow supporters (and in UD that would be surface and surface supporters). With permastrikes, hangings and all. That one will be fun.

No XP mechanical script, however, will not result in any sort of fun.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I agree with IC measures stated above. I suggest a compromise that you lift all the XP/loot restrictions, but if a surfacer is slain in the Under/Upperdark he will be permsatricken or imprisoned, it would be fair and much more interesting according to RP.

Also mind that there are such races as tieflings and orcs. Tieflings from the Underdark are getting the same restrictions as drow right now, which is weird at least. I mean if the surfacer sees this tiefling he will never know that this is an UD toon, although this doesn't matter anyway.

In this thread someone stated that the new XP/loot system was implemented after drow raids, but this doesn't make any slightest sense. Those drow PvP-mongers are affected in no way by the update and they can still do their thing, as well as surface grinders. But if IC measures will be done (like handing out permastrikes or something more tricky), both drow PvP-mongers and surfacers grinding the Underdark will get what they deserve, simple as that.

[Thorsson]

For a while (or am I imagining it) there was only contact between the UD and the surface through the medium of a DM. IMO that's how it should be as it ensures that actions will have consequences. Making it easier to travel from one realm to the other is what has caused this argument. Ergo remove the cause.

Anyway I cannot think of any valid IC reason why either side would be travelling to the other realm to kill monsters, when there are plenty in their own back yard.

[Steve]

Anyway I cannot think of any valid IC reason why either side would be travelling to the other realm to kill monsters, when there are plenty in their own back yard.

But maybe DMs could!

What I mean is: it seems like more than a handful of Players have characters that WANT to have a reason, IC, to interact between the Surface and the UD. So why not create an IC reason?

We say “...there are no Drow on the surface in this year, Canon Lore.” But why not give them the chance? Make it a Campaign. Make it INCREDIBLY difficult. Make it a Campaign of Permadeath Consequence (against the reward of success!). Make Players WORK for it.

Because obviously, Players have already taken the initiative. Steer players into a RP adventure about it, instead of any shut down.

That said, considering what the Underdark is really supposed to be like in Canon and beyond the capabilities of this game engine, and considering that Underdark races have developed in such a way to most likely HATE the surface and any minute upon it, it is and always has been INSANE SUICIDAL PRACTICE to “cross the border,” in either direction. It SHOULD be incredibly rare and nearly impossible, which is why the Books make it so intense in their description about the experience, for either direction.

Grinding Areas kills RP. We all know this. Considering one can use RP to get your Character anywhere, what is the problem here?

[NegInfinity]

Anyway I cannot think of any valid IC reason why either side would be travelling to the other realm to kill monsters, when there are plenty in their own back yard.

That one is very easy. To kill things they've never faced before.

You know, the whole "travel the world, meet new creatures and kill them" thing.

UD has some unique enemies that are not available on surface, surface has unique enemies that are not available in UD.

For a curious adventurer from either realm, the other side might look at an amazingly interesting place to explore.

[Khazrak]

I was gonna stay silent and read, but I really like this:

We say “...there are no Drow on the surface in this year, Canon Lore.” But why not give them the chance? Make it a Campaign. Make it INCREDIBLY difficult. Make it a Campaign of Permadeath Consequence (against the reward of success!). Make Players WORK for it.

Because obviously, Players have already taken the initiative. Steer players into a RP adventure about it, instead of any shut down.

I think there's merit to this snippet from Steve. It puts the DMs in control of the situation, but gives the players agency to push their goal. It doesn't require changing any server rules except maybe in the future, if the campaign is successful. If there's a DM that has an interest in running this sort of storyline, let them handle these events. And if things go badly for the players, or if poor decisions are made, let the dice fall where they may. And if they do well... Let some IC change precipitate a change in rules, perhaps, so there's a lore basis for the rule changes.

All my surface characters are firmly in the "Smite Drow" camp, except the one that's in the "AAAAAH RUN AWAY" camp. See Drow, smite Drow, them's the rules in this here town.

With that said, I could see myself creating a fitting character solely for a campaign with a high risk of permadeath. Permadeath can be really fun.

[aaron22]

Permadeath can be really fun.

[Fury_US]

Permadeath can be really fun.

*cringes in anticipation of the inevitable post that consists of all variations of "(do me) no".*

(For what it's worth, I actually think the idea has merit, IF the players involved were willing to accept the rolls and not accuse the DM handling it of "pushing an agenda" if things didn't go in their favor. So far, from what I am reading, I don't know if that is possible.)

[NegInfinity]

I was gonna stay silent and read, but I really like this:

We say “...there are no Drow on the surface in this year, Canon Lore.” But why not give them the chance? Make it a Campaign. Make it INCREDIBLY difficult. Make it a Campaign of Permadeath Consequence (against the reward of success!). Make Players WORK for it.

Because obviously, Players have already taken the initiative. Steer players into a RP adventure about it, instead of any shut down.

I think there's merit to this snippet from Steve. It puts the DMs in control of the situation, but gives the players agency to push their goal. It doesn't require changing any server rules except maybe in the future, if the campaign is successful. If there's a DM that has an interest in running this sort of storyline, let them handle these events. And if things go badly for the players, or if poor decisions are made, let the dice fall where they may. And if they do well... Let some IC change precipitate a change in rules, perhaps, so there's a lore basis for the rule changes.

All my surface characters are firmly in the "Smite Drow" camp, except the one that's in the "AAAAAH RUN AWAY" camp. See Drow, smite Drow, them's the rules in this here town.

With that said, I could see myself creating a fitting character solely for a campaign with a high risk of permadeath. Permadeath can be really fun.

this could be fun and in line with what I would expect from a rp server. Let people change the world through their actions... Or let them die trying. At the very least it would make the world feel more alive.