Game Mechanics Discrimination

[Endelyon]

If you don't like the rule you can always appeal to the DM staff to have it changed (can't say I've personally ever cared one way or the other about UD/surface travel rules, and in fact I've always thought they needed to be lessened rather than further restricted), but that should ideally be hashed out with the team through private messages instead of vaguely ranting about it in a public forum thread.

As long as the rule remains in place the mechanical restriction will as well. If the DMs lift the rule, then so too will we lift the exp/loot restriction.

[Incarnate]

MAte, do us a favor and read the rules. especially the following part, That was always the case, I am not saying it. The new mechanics enforces just that. If you want to RP and have a reason for it, go ahead. If you want to loot or grind... sorry

– Surface/UD Travel!
-You can be on the other side, but have some roleplay reason to be there (not just an excuse to grind or PvP). races from the surface and the Underdark, respectively, are not permitted to live on the other side without DM approval. Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Valid RP reasons outside of the above are defined widely and do not require prior DM approval. Examples include meeting another PC to trade, or to RP over religion, or to establish contacts with another guild. We would ask however that you are able to state your reasons when a DM asks and abide by any decision that is made. Please note that it is not valid to grind once the reasons for travelling to the surface or Underdark are complete. Stating that you are meeting a PC in Sshamath to acquire via trade rare and valuable items is a valid reason but grinding afterwards with your trading partner is still grinding. Both surface and Underdark races are permitted on Upperdark maps and full RP outs are required to initiate PvP (no KOS on Upperdark maps). If slain in PvP on the "other" side you may be issued a permastrike as a result.

We also ask that players are respectful of the setting given the leniency of these rules. On the surface NPCs should be regarded as universally hostile to Underdark PCs and so maps with NPCs should be avoided where possible without DM supervision. In the Underdark, the peculiarities of Sshamath's lore should be respected and the Underdark itself should be considered a dangerous and hostile place. While we wish to facilitate roleplay between surface and Underdark we do not want to erode the setting and so may intervene in RP that is immersion breaking.

I have read the rules and I have to abide them, but that doesn't mean I agree specifically with these aspects of the rules. Especially the things they don't deem as valid RP reasons. There a many reasons that could be considered valid, but wouldn't be valid with logic behind these rules. I do think they're are counter-productive to rp. Because basically with the above logic, its only interaction with other player characters that is allowed and nothing more, and as such they should really have considered to not make UD characters playable and have UD as a complete PvE area, as it really does destroy a lot of rp potential.

Look, I have well over 27 years of experience as a DM & player with D&D (2/3's of it is DM'ing), and Forgotten Realms is the setting I usually run my campaigns in, so I'm quite familiar RP reasons. These ruling are indicative of ONE thing - that is they want to stop grinding from happening, but its grinding as general issue.

[mrm3ntalist]

MAte, do us a favor and read the rules. especially the following part, That was always the case, I am not saying it. The new mechanics enforces just that. If you want to RP and have a reason for it, go ahead. If you want to loot or grind... sorry

– Surface/UD Travel!
-You can be on the other side, but have some roleplay reason to be there (not just an excuse to grind or PvP). races from the surface and the Underdark, respectively, are not permitted to live on the other side without DM approval. Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Valid RP reasons outside of the above are defined widely and do not require prior DM approval. Examples include meeting another PC to trade, or to RP over religion, or to establish contacts with another guild. We would ask however that you are able to state your reasons when a DM asks and abide by any decision that is made. Please note that it is not valid to grind once the reasons for travelling to the surface or Underdark are complete. Stating that you are meeting a PC in Sshamath to acquire via trade rare and valuable items is a valid reason but grinding afterwards with your trading partner is still grinding. Both surface and Underdark races are permitted on Upperdark maps and full RP outs are required to initiate PvP (no KOS on Upperdark maps). If slain in PvP on the "other" side you may be issued a permastrike as a result.

We also ask that players are respectful of the setting given the leniency of these rules. On the surface NPCs should be regarded as universally hostile to Underdark PCs and so maps with NPCs should be avoided where possible without DM supervision. In the Underdark, the peculiarities of Sshamath's lore should be respected and the Underdark itself should be considered a dangerous and hostile place. While we wish to facilitate roleplay between surface and Underdark we do not want to erode the setting and so may intervene in RP that is immersion breaking.

I have read the rules and I have to abide them, but that doesn't mean I agree specifically with these aspects of the rules. Especially the things they don't deem as valid RP reasons. There a many reasons that could be considered valid, but wouldn't be valid with logic behind these rules. I do think they're are counter-productive to rp. Because basically with the above logic, its only interaction with other player characters that is allowed and nothing more, and as such they should really have considered to not make UD characters playable and have UD as a complete PvE area, as it really does destroy a lot of rp potential.

Look, I have well over 27 years of experience as a DM & player with D&D (2/3's of it is DM'ing), and Forgotten Realms is the setting I usually run my campaigns in, so I'm quite familiar RP reasons. These ruling are indicative of ONE thing - that is they want to stop grinding from happening, but its grinding as general issue.

Like Endy said, if you dont like something pm the admins and ask for a change. If not, it is your choice whether to play or not based on those rules and directions.

I understand you have a lot of experience with dnd etc. That is not the issue here. You chose to play on a server that it is being set up by others the way it is. Noone forced you to accept something

[Incarnate]

I understand you have a lot of experience with dnd etc. That is not the issue here. You chose to play on a server that it is being set up by others the way it is. Noone forced you to accept something

Shouldn't be necessary to PM an admin or DM as they're pretty much active in this discussion and thus aware that people don't agree with the rules and the enforced mechanic. I'm just pointing out that with my amount of experience I can tell that the current rules are counter-productive to rp.

Furthermore, Endelyon whos a Global Admin has responded, that means Endelyon has seen whats going on with the subject and should be taking it up with the team.

[mrm3ntalist]

I understand you have a lot of experience with dnd etc. That is not the issue here. You chose to play on a server that it is being set up by others the way it is. Noone forced you to accept something

Shouldn't be necessary to PM an admin or DM as they're pretty much active in this discussion and thus aware that people don't agree with the rules and the enforced mechanic. I'm just pointing out that with my amount of experience I can tell that the current rules are counter-productive to rp.

Furthermore, Endelyon whos a Global Admin has responded, that means Endelyon has seen whats going on with the subject and should be taking it up with the team.

So if they decide to keep this mechanic?

[Endelyon]

Furthermore, Endelyon whos a Global Admin has responded, that means Endelyon has seen whats going on with the subject and should be taking it up with the team.

This is a battle you have to fight on your own, I'm afraid. If you want to see a change, you and those interested need to contact the DM team--not me, and not post in a general thread (though I don't mean you aren't allowed to post, only that for all I know there's a good chance the DMs won't even read this before it's buried).

Not to sound indifferent to your plight but I'm not interested in micromanaging whether or not UDers are allowed to come to the surface and whether or not they'll get exp from monsters they kill if they do. I already mentioned I think the rules should be lessened to allow for "free travel" to any area that would logically allow it (so no Drow inside BG, etc), but the DMs have some (presumably) good reasons for wanting to keep the current rules in place.

[Asmodea]

It should be possible to find ways to positively incentivize UDers RPing on the surface as well perhaps? Which while not directly related to the new rule limiting grinding on the surface people might find fast traction with an idea that does that along side fighting the new no cross-xp rules? Punitive measures like limiting PC actions are something I am sure the staff doesn't like doing anymore than PCs like having it, something that rewards behavior everyone would like to see might work out well. Just some first brush ideas:

-- Maybe give UD characters a one time (Or monthly?) quest with a bunch of XP for killing each Surface Boss? There is a lot of risk involving in doing it, and if it is a one time boon and a quest along side no grinding it encourages exploration but discourage grinding.

-- More RP XP for UD on surface maps and visa versa. Give people a reason to RP with eachother?

I am sure people could sit around and spit ball up more ideas and forward them to staff. Hopefully staff could give feed back on why the idea didn't work and they could be likewise tweaked.

It sounds a lot like everyone kind of wants the same thing even as people are yelling at each other.

[NegInfinity]

Furthermore, Endelyon whos a Global Admin has responded, that means Endelyon has seen whats going on with the subject and should be taking it up with the team.

This is a battle you have to fight on your own, I'm afraid. If you want to see a change, you and those interested need to contact the DM team--not me, and not post in a general thread (though I don't mean you aren't allowed to post, only that for all I know there's a good chance the DMs won't even read this before it's buried).

Not to sound indifferent to your plight but I'm not interested in micromanaging whether or not UDers are allowed to come to the surface and whether or not they'll get exp from monsters they kill if they do. I already mentioned I think the rules should be lessened to allow for "free travel" to any area that would logically allow it (so no Drow inside BG, etc), but the DMs have some (presumably) good reasons for wanting to keep the current rules in place.

Fine, can you link to a template for the rule appeal request?

[adobongmanok]

If you don't like the rule you can always appeal to the DM staff to have it changed (can't say I've personally ever cared one way or the other about UD/surface travel rules, and in fact I've always thought they needed to be lessened rather than further restricted), but that should ideally be hashed out with the team through private messages instead of vaguely ranting about it in a public forum thread.

As long as the rule remains in place the mechanical restriction will as well. If the DMs lift the rule, then so too will we lift the exp/loot restriction.

I opened this thread to just see how the public opinion thinks about the current situation. So far it has been civil, or so at least I would like to think so. I just want to put it out there, thank you for all the hard work you have done in the server and also the other DMs, devs, and admins that runs the server.

Furthermore, Endelyon whos a Global Admin has responded, that means Endelyon has seen whats going on with the subject and should be taking it up with the team.

Hey thanks for the feedback! This is actually the point why I started this thread. Let's just take a quick step back and relax. I think your point has crossed to many readers who has yet to comment.

Like Endy said, if you dont like something pm the admins and ask for a change. If not, it is your choice whether to play or not based on those rules and directions.

I understand you have a lot of experience with dnd etc. That is not the issue here. You chose to play on a server that it is being set up by others the way it is. Noone forced you to accept something

It is a proper response that if there's a problem with someone, it should be confronted privately with the DMs. I just want to reiterate the goal of this discussion, it is to hear what the public opinion about the game mechanic changes. I hope to continue the discussion so we could hear the rest of the public opinion.

It sounds a lot like everyone kind of wants the same thing even as people are yelling at each other.

Hehe, this is what happens when people are very passionate with something. I do like the idea of suggestions as to how we could probably work with the lore, yet give some incentives to the UD rpers who wants to go surface for RP. Maybe some extra XP?

[Endelyon]

Fine, can you link to a template for the rule appeal request?

No such template exists I'm afraid. You'll have to write it free-form if you'd like to make such a request.

---

Locking this thread before it gets out of hand or turns into an argument as well (this is not as a result of anything posted in this one, but a pre-emptive measure to prevent).

If you have further questions or concerns about UD/surface travel policies please contact the DM team (or whatever staff group you like the best!). Thank you for your understanding.

[Endelyon]

Unlocking this topic at OP's request, just make sure to keep the discussion civil.

[Steve]

I copied this out of the Lore of the Lands section of our Forums, and underlined some pertinent bits:

Despite its role as an Underdark trading center, Sshamath is surprisingly hard to reach from the surface. While a few routes shorter than hundreds of miles connect Sshamath to the surface, the most common way to reach the city from the surface is teleportation magic, a consequence of the complete absence of faerzress near Sshamath. However, teleport requires the wizard to either visit the target location or scry it first. The first restraint is self-limiting, while the second is made difficult by the near total lack on the surface as to even the general location of the city. In addition, S'shamath is located on an earth node which has been enchanted with spells that prevent long-range scrying and teleportation into the city. Licences for Teleportation can be acquired from the master of Aportation, meaning that visiting S'shamath itself is something of a commodity. Finally, teleportation restricts the volume of trade goods that can be ferried into or out of the city. As a result, Sshamath has very little contact and commerce with the Realms above.

The most important and direct route from the surface is Varalla's Passage. Completed by the Lich Queen at the behest of the Conclave of Sshamath, this route promises to one day open the legendary markets of Sshamath to the Realms Above. Sememmon discovered Varalla's Passage in the Year of the Griffon (1312 DR), but kept it secret from all but his most trusted apprentices. Within days of the destruction of Zhentil Keep, Sememmon dispatched emissaries to negotiate a trade accord between the drow wizards of Sshamath and the Zhentarim of Darkhold. Negotiations continue slowly; Sememmon's fears tipped his hand to Manshoon, and the conservative elements of Sshamath's ruling council feared revealing themselves to hordes of surface dwellers.

Sshamath can also be reached through the tunnels of the fallen dwarven realm Oghrann. The most direct route from the surface begins within the dwarven mines of the Far Hills, and eventually winds down into the middle Underdark via a circuitous and treacherous route. This route is unlikely to ever rival Varalla's Passage, due both to the hostile shield dwarves of Oghranni descent at the beginning of the route and the small hive of beholder-kin that dominates the Gauth Grottoes (see below) along the way.

There are PLENTY of Lore-based reasons to have Surface/Underdark restricted, to reflect the Canon difficulties. However, if our Server has custom differences to Canon Lore, then this page and the general understanding of Lore needs to be clear and updated!

[roke42]

In my opinion, the UD is currently underpopulated, so it would actually need something to attract people down there and keep them there. During my active time as a drow player down there, I disliked very much that most people were looking for any reason to go upside, leaving the UD even more empty.

On the other hand, why does an OOC mechanic to deny loot and grind XP affect negatively RP? If you want to RP killing the white dragon, go and kill it. RP wise, there hasn't anything changed with the new OOC mechanic. You can still IC my claim to have killed the dragon. You simply don't get any OOC benefit anymore.

[Azkan]

Another thing we could do is make light sensitivity a real problem. I don't think it is, currently. It's supposed to be a formidable enough force to be able to trash equipment from the Underdark.
It's of course all a lot more work than the solutions we have in place so. Don't hold your breath.

This is not quite the case in Sshamath as we don't have Faerzress, those things Drow in another cities use to enchant equipment and make them more powerful than surfacer's stuff.
That's why we don't have better equipment, and why it shouldn't melt in the surface then.
Also drows get a -3 at every action while in daytime when in the surface.

[XyrisMourn]

[ self-edited. It seems pointless ]