Fallen Paladin

[Skade]

Hello community!

I have a question.

Can you rp a blackguard as a fallen paladin from.. Helm Tyr or Torm?

And if you do.. where whould it get its EDM strengths from?

Or is it only the Dark gods that counts in this case?

[Arn]

You could fall and become a Blackguard, but you'd have to change gods of course. After the fall, EDM would probably come from the new evil god.

I was going to say you could possibly be a Blackguard of Helm, since Helm is a neutral god and I think mechanically it is possible. However, it doesn't seem to make sense lore-wise. Compare the Blackguard description to Helm's dogma:

"The blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal
fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputation
of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Consorting with
demons and devils and serving dark deities, the blackguard is
hated and feared by all. Some people call these villains antipaladins
due to their completely evil nature.
The blackguard has many options available to him—sending
forth dark minions and servants to do his bidding, attacking with
stealth and honorless guile, or straightforward smiting of the
forces of good that stand in his way. Fighters, ex-paladins, rangers,
monks, druids, and barbarians make for indomitable combat-oriented
blackguards, while rogues and bards who become blackguards
are likely to stress the subtle aspects of their abilities and
spells. Sorcerers, wizards, and clerics who become blackguards are
sometimes called diabolists and favor dealing with fiends even
more than other blackguards do.
As NPCs, blackguards usually lead legions of undead, evil outsiders,
or other monsters to conquer their own doomed demesne
or expand their existing territory. Sometimes they serve more
powerful evil characters as dark lieutenants. On occasion they
operate alone as hired killers or wandering purveyors of ill,
destruction, and chaos."

• -Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5, page 181

"Never betray your trust. Be vigilant. Stand, wait,
and watch carefully. Be fair and diligent in the conduct of
your orders. Protect the weak, poor, injured, and young, and do
not sacrifice them for others or yourself. Anticipate attacks
and be ready. Know your foes. Care for your weapons so they
may perform their duties when called upon. Careful plan-
ning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey
orders, providing those orders follow the dictates of Helm.
Demonstrate excellence and purity of loyalty in your role as a
guardian and protector."

• -Faiths and Pantheons, page 28

It may be possible to be a Blackguard of Helm if he is particularly loyal and always obeys orders. I can't see a blackguard protecting the weak like a Helmite is supposed to, but then again Helmites harmed the natives of Maztica. So maybe a Blackguard of Helm is possible. *shrug*

[Steve]

I personally don't think a Blackguard of Helm would be possible, or make sense. A Blackguard "...epitomizes evil. Consorting with demons and devils and serving dark deities."

My thoughts on why Helm supports Lawful Evil is because even Helm realizes there are times when a "knight" in his Church must be the one(s) to take/make an Evil action, in order for a "greater" Good. Like, kill willingly and good people under the Law, or to keep the Law...or something like that.

[Skade]

Great answers. Thank You!

Is it possible for an Aasimar to become a blackguard?

Sorry if the question is stupid

[Rhifox]

It is possible for aasimars to become blackguards, yes.

As for where a fallen paladin gets their EDM strengths from... well, it's certainly not from their old god. A fallen paladin has been cast aside by their old god. Even if Helm was willing to give powers to blackguards, that person would not be fallen because he's still being supported by his god. The average fallen paladin just becomes a fighter, likely still with their same patron (that patron just no longer grants the ex-paladin any powers). Those paladins who become blackguards or warriors of darkness are paladins who fall hard, not only being abandoned by their gods, but actively choosing to embrace, serve, and worship a new, dark patron, and it is that dark patron that gives them their new powers.

So yes, only a dark god (or fiend) would suffice.

[Arn]

Do you think it's possible for Helm to be like "WOW, that backstabby murder you did was REALLY not according to the paladin code. Can't keep granting you paladin powers, buddy. But maybe the blackguard job description would be more up your alley..."

In other words, can you just fall from being a paladin, while not necessarily falling away from your god?

[Rhifox]

I'm inclined to say no. Becoming a fallen paladin means you've disappointed or otherwise failed your god in some way (a god that cares very strongly for order and duty). I can't see that god then deciding to keep giving you powers of any sort. I think you'd still have to atone to that god before you were allowed any powers again. Maybe after you atoned, they might give you powers of a different class instead of paladin. But because you've still atoned, that wouldn't be a fallen paladin in my eyes. Just a former paladin.

[NegInfinity]

It may be possible to be a Blackguard of Helm if he is particularly loyal and always obeys orders.

I've contemplated rolling blackguard of helm at some point, basically, one would need to latch on "protect those you've been entrusted" and turn that into "and murder anything that could possibly threaten them". Basically, you could have a grimdark dude protecting orphanage by painting street red with anyone who looks at the building wrongly. "protect the weak" can be turned into "kill the strong", and so on.

It is still possible to uphold this dogma and be absolutely evil, although in case of helmite dogma good portion of those deeds are usually associated with "good" guys. Then again, Book of Vile Darkness and book of Exhalted Deeds say that intent matters as well, so perhaps the blackguard will be up to no good, despite acting in positive way.

However, even though helm allows lawful evil clerics, I think that blackguard of helm would require a DM approval. Due to the nature of blackguard pact. Basically the problem here is that the pact is made through evil outsider, and helm, uh, usually doesn't employ those. That can be dealt with by coming up in situation when a baatezu or some other fiend ended up being indebted to the deity - somehow, and used the blackguard pact to break free from the bond. But that's definitely pushing it and most likely will require DM approval.

Still, it could be a very fun concept to play.

Also... BG does not really support fallen palading rule where fallen paladin gets its paladin levels replaced by blackguard ones (meaning it starts acting as a base class). So you'll still need few fighter levels or whatever else.

[NegInfinity]

Regarding "fallen paladin" part.

I beleive if a paladin falls, it would be difficult for him/her to retain the same god. This one would require DM clarification. The more plausible scenario where fall was accompanied by patron deity switch.

Regarding aasimar blackguards:

Aasimar can be evil. Evil aasimar are extremely rare, but make terrifying villains.

[chad878262]

F12/BG10/DC5/NWN3... Full Blackguard isn't really good from a mechanical perspective, but if you want the RP of it I would see this as giving the divine feel. Bodyguard levels make sense as well as granting extra sneak dice and faster movement. I would probably try and get Feint on such a build since with EDM the CHA modifier should help you get a decent bluff with some investment.

I agree though from an RP standpoint I would want DM approval before I played such a thing. That said I also agree it is a really cool concept... Jack Bauer was protecting people and he still did some downright evil stuff... I'd likely use that as a starting point and craft the characters personality and belief structure from that... Takes someone willing to do evil to protect the mooks from greater evil, basically.

[Hawke]

I am too lazy to look it up, but from my knowledge of 3.5 ed... when a paladin falls, he/she loses all of their powers. They can still use armor, have access to their feats, bab, hp, etc... but no powers.

They do not magically transform their paladin levels into any other classes (that is what a sympathetic DM does, right or wrong). They either atone, or they are basically a dumbed down fighter, but without the extra feats every other level.

According to this site http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClass ... kguard.htm

A blackguard with paladin levels get some nice goodies. But the abilities look a lot like what we have already in NWN2 BGTSCC.

If you want a paladin/blackguard (fallen paladin of course) in your mix of classes, definitely DM approval because of the alignment shift and enforcement of no more paladin levels.. like probably ever. I say probably because of Rule 0.

But saying you are a fallen paladin and have no paladin levels might fall into the "play your sheet" rule.

Definitely talk to the DM team. I am sure they will be able to help, and offer up some advice that might have been done before, but not public knowledge (as some people who go evil or some minor change to standard rules remain somewhat silent at times).

[Cenerae]

I am too lazy to look it up, but from my knowledge of 3.5 ed... when a paladin falls, he/she loses all of their powers. They can still use armor, have access to their feats, bab, hp, etc... but no powers.

They do not magically transform their paladin levels into any other classes (that is what a sympathetic DM does, right or wrong). They either atone, or they are basically a dumbed down fighter, but without the extra feats every other level.

According to this site http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClass ... kguard.htm

A blackguard with paladin levels get some nice goodies. But the abilities look a lot like what we have already in NWN2 BGTSCC.

If you want a paladin/blackguard (fallen paladin of course) in your mix of classes, definitely DM approval because of the alignment shift and enforcement of no more paladin levels.. like probably ever. I say probably because of Rule 0.

But saying you are a fallen paladin and have no paladin levels might fall into the "play your sheet" rule.

Definitely talk to the DM team. I am sure they will be able to help, and offer up some advice that might have been done before, but not public knowledge (as some people who go evil or some minor change to standard rules remain somewhat silent at times).

I thought that some demons or devils would try to tempt the fallen paladin into making a deal, allowing them to cash in their paladin levels for blackguard.

Or is that basically at DM discretion?

[Hawke]

It's all Rule 0.

You have your paladin levels, but the powers cannot be accessed because you fell from grace with your god.

But since you had access to those powers before, you are able to make the most of blackguard.

Going from Paladin to Blackguard to Paladin, I don't think could happen, but it's all Rule 0.

Which is why I still stick with the original suggestion... Run it past the DM team first.

I'm all about anti-hero and redemption. Been a huge fan of Punisher since I was like 9 years old when I picked up the "magazine" which was a reprint of about 4 of his comic book issues. Epic stuff.

Thanks mom, for assuming anything with drawings is safe for kids

[Arn]

Thanks mom, for assuming anything with drawings is safe for kids

My parents bought me Watchmen for Christmas when I was in first grade.

Smiley-face cover, how bad could it be??