What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD?

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Tsidkenu
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

To get back to the OP: nothing has prevented me from making a UD main. Various factors already raised 'prevent' me from persisting with a UD main.

When I first made Schezalle a couple of years ago it was to explore two sides of the server I had not before. Firstly the Underdark, and secondly full-time evil RP. As others have already brought up, my interest waned because so very few UD players exist in my particular timezone and I RPed a drow that had 0 interest in the surface so that was never an option.

Eventually the perpetual RP loneliness became too much so I started a new character after fully retiring my previous surface main, Aeili. My new char has interests both in Surface & UD so I flit between the two as my whims suit me ;)
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

Fury_US wrote:For those who enjoy it, and especially those who go above and beyond to realize characters that are beyond the typical tropes (you happy, happy few, you), then more power to you.
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Cenerae
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Cenerae »

I've made the attempt a couple of times. The very first character I made on the server was a drow rogue. Huge mistake, and one I shall not repeat. ECL 2 is brutally punishing in those early levels.

But the main turnoff for me has been how little RP there is. If you're not in one of the factions, you're basically alone. The PvE experience on this server is not engaging enough to make me want to do nothing but solo grind for 99% of a character's existence. I get bored after a while, and doubly so the closer a character reaches epics, where grinding starts to feel like a waste of time.

Other issues...I would have said the need to keep referencing a third party map to figure out where I'm going, but we actually have zone markers down there now, so that's nice.

The insistence on using 'drow words' in RP. We're all communicating with each other in a language we all know, so I don't know why some people insist on going half understandable english and half 'well I guess I need to cross reference this with a website'. It's really off-putting, and it also makes me feel like I need to reciprocate...which leads to me spending 5 minutes working on a similarly worded response...and then me getting frustrated, likely along with whoever was trying to RP with me. A little bit here and there for flavor is fine. Possibly ironically, I find that the ones who overdo it actually break my immersion harder than anything else about the UD.

The last few times I've attempted to play my half drow, only once did I manage to run into anyone from the UD, and it boiled down to grovelling a bit to avoid getting PK'd on the spot and then trailing them around as a bardic buffbot. Whereas when she was on the surface before the new IC laws went out (the ones about the drow bounties and such) I was having a lot of fun with her RP and had people to interact with.

Lastly, the whole insistence of the surface/UD split to the point where guards are assumed to automatically be able to see through any and all disguises you might use, is a real buzzkill as well. Rendering an RP skill useless is never cool in my book. But, the rules are what they are, I guess...it annoys me, but I'm also not interested in joining the crusade to try and overthrow it that's happening elsewhere on the boards. I'd just like the skill to have a use beyond being able to freely change your character name, which requires 0 investment.

Sorry for the rambles, most of it's been covered already but still...
Egg Shen
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Egg Shen »

I think it's important to note how many players are turned off by cramming drow and common together (never heard "drommon" before, but I like it and it fits). I brought this up years and years ago, and explained how awkward, from a linguistics perspective, it is to attempt this in game, and iirc was roundly shouted down. Nice to know I wasn't totally off my rocker. If it's a turn off to newer players AND some of the more seasoned players, it's probably something to avoid if you want more people with whom to interact.

Maybe I'll see if it's in an archive somewhere.

Anyway, I split my time fairly evenly between the UD and the surface. I like both. I haven't encountered much of the forced 'adult' roleplay, for which I am thankful because it's not why I play. In general, I find the overall RP to be of slightly higher quality in the UD, but it also suffers for all the reasons listed by everybody above. It's really a very specific cup of tea, and it's not for everybody. I'm anything but surprised that it doesn't attract the same number of players as the surface.

Some say that the size is a detriment. I disagree. I actually like that it's smaller, as it helps to make sure we bump into one another.
NegInfinity
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Egg Shen wrote:I think it's important to note how many players are turned off by cramming drow and common together (never heard "drommon" before, but I like it and it fits).
I know two languages, and basically this is not something you do when speaking non-native tongue. Inserting words from one language into another only happens when you forgot the equivalent. Meaning, drommon indicates that the speaker has trouble remembering common language words for "man", "woman", "yes", etc. Never seen anyone play it this way, though.

Unfortunately, jamming foreign language words for flavor is a fairly common trope in fantasy works (for example, dragon speech in skyrim).
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electric mayhem
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by electric mayhem »

I've found drommon to be quite intimidating OOCly, rather offputting, and appears to be somewhat elitist, when encountered in any setting.
We have a great language tool in the game, which ensures all characters that speak a particular language can understand it and thereby their Players can understand it and communicate in it too.
Be inclusive. Set your language to Drow if you want to speak in drow. Same goes for other languages.
If it looks fake on screen and doesn't match what you would consider drow lore words... who cares... its a made up language for a game anyway.


And yes. Drommon is a huge detractor for me.
Along with the awkward RP around the conflict between Self-sufficiency and mistrust of other drow compared to the need to be inclusive just to play a Multiplayer game with others down there.



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Hoihe
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Hoihe »

electric mayhem wrote:I've found drommon to be quite intimidating OOCly, rather offputting, and appears to be somewhat elitist, when encountered in any setting.
We have a great language tool in the game, which ensures all characters that speak a particular language can understand it and thereby their Players can understand it and communicate in it too.
Be inclusive. Set your language to Drow if you want to speak in drow. Same goes for other languages.
If it looks fake on screen and doesn't match what you would consider drow lore words... who cares... its a made up language for a game anyway.


And yes. Drommon is a huge detractor for me.
Along with the awkward RP around the conflict between Self-sufficiency and mistrust of other drow compared to the need to be inclusive just to play a Multiplayer game with others down there.

I want to echo the second part. It's bloody hard to justify partying with other people if you don't want to be backstabbed. You show weakness by partying, and you not only have to watch for hostiles but "friendlies" as well.
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Hoihe wrote:It's bloody hard to justify partying with other people if you don't want to be backstabbed. You show weakness by partying, and you not only have to watch for hostiles but "friendlies" as well.
The idea is to be smarter than them, make them do your job, and betray them first.
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NeonAvenger
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by NeonAvenger »

The second biggest reason I've never run a UD character is that I don't feel it's possible to actually represent drow society in a persistent world (well... not without having 100s of DMs or a really complex faction system).

My understanding is that the drow manage to function as a society, despite all its members being lying, cheating, power-hungry, face obsessed, jerks who'd stab you in the back because you didn't say "Good morning" with enough respect, is due to the complex (and very shaky) web of alliances and agreements between houses, guilds, families, churches, mercenary companies, civil organisations...
So the scenario several people have mentioned of being unable to party up for fear of getting stabbed should only happen once they've worked out exactly who you are, who you're affiliated with, if they can afford to stab you in the back, and if stabbing you in the back would even be profitable enough to take the risk.

Fundamentally the Underdark is supposed to be mysterious and exotic, the Turkish bazaar in a Victorian novel; but the moment you make it a series of maps that players can access at will that's exactly what it becomes.
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cosmic ray
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by cosmic ray »

I have probably played longer in the underdark than on the surface, so, evidently, I don't feel discouraged from playing there.

However, there are some offputting factors as an underdark player, or a hybrid player, to be more precise, most of which, if not all, have already been pointed out, but they nevertheless bear repeating in the name of getting the whole picture:

- the low population makes the place boring more often than the surface, not that the surface isn't also boring during American early mornings/European late mornings;

- the vastly inferior quality of the adventuring content relative to that of the surface can make it boring to take part in the main activity of Dungeons and Dragons games, that is, adventuring;

- so-called "drommon" makes me cringe whenever I see it, although I never pester people who use it, instead asking what the words I don't know, or don't remember, mean. Drommon is silly, illogical, confusing and increases the learning curve to roleplay, yes, but asking the meanings in a tell is quite easy to do and people will answer you. I do think the use of drommon should be discouraged by social pressure though - as opposed to OOC rules;



I think that's mostly it, from my perspective. I can see where the carebear argument comes from, and it's true that the environment created by our characters down in the underdark doesn't always reflect the brutal world of betrayal and intrigue that the drow live in - not that Sshamath is a typical drow city. However, the same thing happens on the surface, which is far more hospitable, tolerant and safe than the surface of Faerun from the rulebooks and novels, with the exception of a couple of groups like the Zhentarim and, I imagine, the Hellstorm crew (knowing Whistler, I doubt he'd tolerate such a thing as carebear atmosphere). Look at things on the bright side: at least there are no bake sales in the underdark (or in Darkhold).

Regarding the comments on excessive, perhaps ubiquitous, ERP, sexual fetishism, etc, I have no idea what that means. My personal experience, anecdotal as that may be, tells me that opportunities and propositions for ERP, both IC and OOC, both tactful and tasteless, are far more numerous on the surface than in the underdark. It's not even a fair comparison. At least I have never noticed anyone avoiding me and my characters in the underdark after I refused ERP, which very sadly I cannot say for the surface.

Also, while it doesn't bother me overmuch, the lack of a map in Rockrun may contribute to some people's frustrations. It's a very old school RPG thing being used in an age where people are used to being handheld by quest markers in AAA games, so I can see where the criticism is coming from.

And for all of you who can't make sense of the underdark's geography, here you have an outdated map that someone in this community made. The biggest difference is the absence of the Oghrann Ruins.
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Calantyr
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Calantyr »

Too claustrophobic. It's all dark tunnels and small caves. After a while it just feels stifling.
Playing a surfacer is better because there is more variety. If i want to go underground, i'll visit a cave for a while. If my Drow goes anywhere near the surface, he dies.

I did have a fun half-drow for a while that looked like a surface elf. My plan was that because she didn't look completely Drow I would be able to visit the surface more often, and save me the depression of being stuck underground 24/7.

But then the DM's ruled that half-drow that looked like surfacers were illegal, so that ruined that character.

If this server decides to stop me from having fun as a Drow, I'm not going to play one.
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Perhaps there could be more open great caverns to make the underdark seem less claustrophobic. Perhaps a 3 or 4 area open carvern where you transition between the 3 or 4 areas as if it were surface maps.
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

I have a level 23... or 24 drow wizard. But I'm playing it only occasionally, because it's so difficult to enjoy RP in the UD...

To answer OP:

1. The setting. I really don't enjoy practically any of the lolthite lore - especially the stuff Salvatore wrote, as it keeps contradicting the actual Forgotten Realms lore. It's also occasionally giving Lolth more power that she reasonably should have. A mitigating factor on this server is that it's surrounding Sshamath, which is a far more secular city than any other drow city. It is a magocracy too, which is always fun. But in my view, the Conclave isn't shutting down the Lolth influence enough.

2. Aesthetics. It's really dark. Apart from the little purple you find here and there, the whole underdark feels largely monochromatic and largely on the darker side of that. It's also just endless tunnels and tunnels and tunnels. Not a lot of open spaces. This also affects the mechanical enjoyment of the Underdark, of course, as pathing already absolutely sucks in NWN2. And when you introduce a terrible AI for summons into that bad pathing and narrow tunnels, you end up with very little fun mechanically. This is also hell to work with as a DM when spawning in mobs...

3. Past experiences with UD players. I have over the years I've been on the server tried several times to get into UD RP. One time, there was a group of generally popular and highly regarded RPers who pretty much ignored my character and then went "(( Lol, sorry, we're chatting on skype and not ingame ))". That turned me off quite badly. There's also an insane amount of PvP focus - and cringeworthy building towards the best ways to win PvPs often to the detriment of the character. Indeed rarely are these builds RPed "correctly" (such as RPing 8 wisdom, for instance). I've also experienced a lot of rule bending and loophole abusing. And sometimes just flat out rule breaking in ways that are difficult to document. Again, these are past experiences I have had and come from that perspective. I don't know if it is representative.

4. Difficulty to find RP. This is probably the biggest discouragement to play in the UD for me. And especially enjoyable RP. As some have already pointed out, the low population numbers make spontaneous RP very rare. And I find that not much of the RP that goes on there really inspires me much. Just not my cup of tea, I suppose. Again, there's a lot of Lolth crap going on, after all.

5. Drommon. Someone has already said it, but I'll also complain about this. It's ridiculous. We have the DMFI language tool for speaking the drow "language" (Races of Faerûn and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting both fail to mention this thing even existing. Races of Faerûn, if I recall correctly, even states that drow speak elven with a dialect). Moreover, combining the common language with random words of drow does nothing to add to the flavour. All it does is make your characters seem too stupid to decide on which language they want to speak in. And that is exactly how my UD character will react to someone who speaks drommon. It's especially ridiculous when it's s non-drow who doesn't even have the drow "language" who speaks it.
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Deathgrowl wrote:All it does is make your characters seem too stupid to decide on which language they want to speak in.
Yeah, and it is probably just another escaped slave who speaks goblin or something. ;)

The 'Drommon' thing is based entirely on 'RP' virtue. It would not be hard to overnumber the 'Drommon' crowd and just shun them for speaking in goblin.
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Re: What discourages you from playing/making a main PC in UD

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Sun Wukong wrote: Yeah, and it is probably just another escaped slave who speaks goblin or something. ;)
Now that would've been an interesting concept.
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