'Keen Sense' as a Rogue Special Ability

[Sun Wukong]

You know, it does not have to be named as 'Keen Sense' - it could be just 'Keen Observer' or just about anything similar:

Characters with this feat may apply their full Search skill even when making a passive Search.

Which in NWN2 terms means that the search mode is always on.

[Calantyr]

Maybe Fighters should get Dwarven abilities as a Fighter Feat. Wizards could get Drow abilities and Clerics Grey Orc? I could go on, but you prolly get the point...

Can you think of a reason why that would be the case? Because there's already ways where most of those abilities can be gained by other races.

[Cenerae]

Having it as a level up option alongside things like defensive roll? I can't see how it would be a problem.

If anything, it would be a pretty lackluster choice compared to most of the other choices there. A slightly bigger trap detection radius is hardly gamebreaking, and when combatting stealthers everyone is able to manually enter search mode anyway.

I would question the actual thematic fit for the rogue class, though. To be permanently in search mode smacks of paranoia for a rogue more than keen senses.

[Snarfy]

The simplest solution here, if you want the ability as a rogue, would be to make an elf.

Trust me when I say that having keen senses is not going to help you against stumbling into traps if you're running around full speed. Even with keen senses, you still need to slow down(either via the use of stealth or tracking modes) to give your character a chance of detecting traps before you step on them(which can still happen, even if you have 40 search, due to latency). The engine still requires you to be within range of the trap for 2 or 3 seconds before you detect it, so, at best, it will only help you when you stop to pilfer chests. Otherwise, if the intent is to help detect traps on the ground without slowing down(and heaven forbid a capable rogue of any race do that... ), then prepare yourself for dissapointment, because you will be running over all those traps anyways, regardless of your search skill.

[Blackman D]

keen senses is a rather OP feat when given to non elves, its been done before and as you see flaming fist is no longer a playable choice for that and other reasons

if you want it and dont want to be an elf, make a drow like everyone else

[Sun Wukong]

keen senses is a rather OP feat when given to non elves, its been done before and as you see flaming fist is no longer a playable choice for that and other reasons

Actually the discussion on this thread has proven the opposite. You would need 10+ levels in Rogue to get it, and I would still like to hear about those Rogue spotter builds.

As for the Flaming Fist PRC, it was a faction specific and the faction was axed as a player faction. Also, I think one of the abilities was a pre-nerfed Bigby Six as a spell like ability to facialite 'police take downs' or something along those lines.

[Blackman D]

it gave +55 spot and listen with 5 levels, aside from farmer it gave -every- +spot feat for free

anyway there is nothing overly special about rogue with spotting other than it enables the class skill and they have plenty of skill points to dump into it, which is the whole point of using it - its the better option

you can honestly just make any elf and take a 3 level dip and achieve the same thing without hurting any build

but point still remains that keen senses is OP when it comes to the stealth/detection mechanics, you literally spot 5x faster if you have the skill to support it - its not something the stealth community will appreciate being made more readily available than it already is, high cost or not

[Khazrak]

It just expands the pool of people that might have it from Drow and Elves to Level 10+ Rogues as well. I personally think this is very reasonable.

[Sun Wukong]

you literally spot 5x faster if you have the skill to support it

Exactly, if the you have the skill to support it. It is something that Rogue 10+ builds are rather unlikely to have.

Most rogue builds have that -1 wisdom modifier. Most rogue builds cannot fit in detection feats because all their feats are spent on stealth and combat feats. Most rogue builds cannot even wear detection equipment without taking a hit on the stealth department. Oh, and these days Amplify spell only gives +10 listen and it doesn't stack with Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, as stated by Valefort.

We are looking at:
33 (Maxed skill)
- 1 (Wisdom)
+ 10~ (Equipment, few stalker items.)
+ 10 (Wand of Amplify or Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, both come with limited duration.)
= 52

Without some massive area modifiers, 52+1d20 is not enough to spot dedicated sneakers on this server.


I suppose you could roll a wisdom based Zen Archery using rogue with all the detection feats and equipment... and not be able to sneak properly. I suppose the Phantom class could have better success, but it doesn't really mix all that well with Rogue to begin with.


Thus, this change only improves trap finding, and not by much at that. I do not see the balance concern.

[Archaos]

I vote no. It's always been a very elven feature and a big draw to the race.
Stat-wise, halflings, gnomes, dwarves and humans are generally better.

I dislike seeing unique abilities becoming a soup that everyone can take for their build.

Nevermind that the ability is very elven and suited to them concerning their lore.
The elves were always considered the race that had keen senses with powerful eyesight and hearing.

And I always disliked back then how the Flaming Fist PrC got that class feature for free.
Random Flaming Fist members could have just as good if not better sight than elves. Bleh.

[Sun Wukong]

Stat-wise, halflings, gnomes, dwarves and humans are generally better.

That's another 'spotter rogue' statement right there. Thus, I would love to hear the argument behind it.

Nevermind that the ability is very elven and suited to them concerning their lore.

In NWN2, it is literally just constantly active search mode.

And I always disliked back then how the Flaming Fist PrC got that class feature for free.
Random Flaming Fist members could have just as good if not better sight than elves. Bleh.

That is the random Flaming Fist 'GUARDSMEN' people trained and tasked with guarding with eyes wide open - and my former Spirit Shaman without this PRC had even higher detection without even wearing the Fist Uniform.



Once again, Rogue 10+ builds, show me the spotter Rogue 10+ build that makes you dread the possibility so much.

[Blackman D]

well its true a 10th+ level rogue built for sneaking wont make much use of it, but that goes same for traps

if you are sneaking and searching you detect them no faster if your search is high, and running you are very likely to just run them over and if you dont if the concern is slowing down the party, someone else will

trap wise i think it really wont matter enough to suppose the idea

builds tho are not particularly hard, you can easily just skip stealth and use feint for the sneaks and just mix in IB to help and probably swash and/or fighter for some INT synergy or better base damage

[Sun Wukong]

Feint builds are in the same boat with sneak builds. You need that investment in bluff feats, bluff equipment, and you really need to get your saves up because mob casters will see you straight off the bat. Then there is the necessary investment for high strength, and possibly charisma if you went for EDM on your feint build, and regardless of that, the build most likely needs Shield Slam as an alternative to Feint. (On the surface at least.) There is just not enough 'space' left for detection, and once again, the only effect granted by Keen Senses is all about trapfinding.


Edit:
I would not waste a feat on Keen Senses, because it is bit of a waste, and on other hand... Why prevent some rogue for honing their sight and hearing to be a better detector of traps?

[NegInfinity]

Pretty much the topic title. I suggest making the Elven ability 'Keen Sense' a special ability choice when Rogues level up (At 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level, etc). Either that or flat out granting the ability at a certain Rogue level.

I think this fits with Rogues being expert trap finders/disarmers etc, also their general utility at finding secrets in general.

I'd rather not have this. Keen senses is one of the reasons to roll an elf. It should remain racial. (for the record: I don't play elves)

[chad878262]

52 spot is enough that you will be able to eventually spot a player that has 71 hide. You are rolling every second so you will eventually roll a 20. Meanwhile, the player with 71 hide gets 1 (hidden) roll when they enter stealth. If they roll a 1 on the hidden roll your going to spot eventually when in detect mode. By the way, penalties are pretty significant to stealth in this engine. Any Light source? - 10. Moving in stealth? -10. On a hard surface? -5. Then there are area penalties some with good reason, some a bit arbitrary.

Now, added to this, there are plenty of R10 builds that could make for decent WIS. Could go for an Archer Ranger/Rogue/Assassin for example with Zen Archery. Other than half a dozen areas you can get away without being a dedicated sneak against all, but 1 in 20 mobs (or less). In those half a dozen area's even a dedicated sneak with full epic gear is not 100% safe except a few specific builds that can truly max hide. Saying no Rogue spotter exists is a matter of inaccurate thought that only one type of rogue works. Since there are ways to get AB without DEX there exists the possibility of building a STR or WIS rogue, so long as you either get AC or some other defense elsewhere.