Monthly 100% RCR

[Asmodea]

A way to bank XP after 30 and use it to enable closer to 100% or 100% RCRing might also be an interesting and effective solution. It would encourage level 30s to continue searching for XP if they want to tweak their build at all and anything that allows people to play around with content while also giving a sense of progression or reward seems a double win.

[Valefort]

In case of non-profit server, positive usages should be given higher priorities.

Blanket statement disregarding the situation at hand.

Meaining make more stuff that will be taken positively by existing well-behaving crowd, instead of trying to shut down every possible loophole that could possibly ever used by a few "bad apples". Bad player can be permabanned upon being discovered, you know.

The pros and cons of the suggestion were pointed and summarized. I think most everyone agrees on what they are at this point, past this it's a matter of pondering those by their respective frequency and look at the result. In my opinion it's not good, by far. The few players coming back, who will rarely have much playtime anyway, will not offset the cons that were pointed throughout the thread.

Concentrating on negatives would simply lead to conclusion that the only reasonable thing is to shut the server down - because this is the only way to ensure that nobody is ever going to abuse any mechanics on it.

Reductio ad absurdum, as was already pointed. I'll also mention that focusing on positives aspects only can also have ill effects, which can be worse depending on the situation, such as this one. If we focus on the positives we could let everyone select his experience points and freely customize his gear, this would become silly instantly.

Because muling is allowed on bgtscc, yes, this feature would make perfect sense.

For it to stop making sense, you should forbid muling on bgtscc. Frankly, the muling is in place because there's no crafting system and because getting items is rather painful as a result.

How many years has the crafting system been in development, by the way? 8?

I'm aware it would be consistent, that's why I made the comparison. One could also point out that muling is the inconsistency ... which is clearly where I stand.

Crafting and muling have nothing to do with each other, muling is there because there's no practical way to prevent it in the first place. As for crafting I sincerely hope it will never see the light of day because getting good items could become easy and fast (i'd be happy only if it was quite inferior to what can be bought in stores).

Easily obtainable items is not a good idea at all. Easy exp, easy loot make for throwaway characters. Those are absolutely terrible for RP and server activity overall, they might as well be non-existent if they last a couple of weeks. Also hard to earn items prolonge the mechanical progress curve. A character who has no room for mechanical progress will stop looting in most cases, leaving only player to player interactions which is an unhealthy state as you'll frequently find yourself with nothing to do even on a full server.

One doesn't value something he didn't invest time into...

The correct idea is to never add thsoe "anti-exploit" systems in the first place until they're absolutely necessary (see YAGNI principle and KISS principles).

We agree, and guess what ? They were necessary... I can tell am deeply unhappy to code anything to prevent exploits.

[Reckeo]

I argued and whined and stamped my feet about this but the reality is if having Monthly 100% RCR is going to cause a bunch of ruckus and people are going to abuse it, then even though I'd use it, it's probably best to just leave it as it currently stands with once a year and at DM discretion.

I understand everyone's perspective, but I wouldn't wanna see a bunch of people running around as one level 30 one day, and another the next and lets face it...people would do this, and probably way too often which could serve to disrupt the RP community as a whole.

I just wish it was a little more accessible instead of the once a year window as I've consistently missed them for one reason or another, a no-drop token in my inventory woulda been nice, but I won't whine anymore, done enough of that already.

I think the core issue for myself is that post 20 is a longer journey, and a mistake at those higher levels can be detrimental to a successful build in many ways. Not game breaking as a rule, but it can be. It can be circumvented with hard work, or an RCR as it stands, it just requires a lot more time that I don't necessarily want to invest when I feel like it's throwing the dice because feats and spells are broken, and wrong builds suck (that I never seem to learn until 'too late' and I'm already there).

[NegInfinity]

Crafting and muling have nothing to do with each other, muling is there because there's no practical way to prevent it in the first place.

There actually is a way to prevent it. Sigil had a fairly powerful anti-muling script. Items were flagged as yours and upon picking them up by another character of yours, you got flagged to DMs for muling attempt.

Easily obtainable items is not a good idea at all. Easy exp, easy loot make for throwaway characters.

Erm. I meant the default minimum set of equipment, not the ultra super mega rare stuff. Default expected gear on bgtscc is +3. Getting it is pain in the butt.

One doesn't value something he didn't invest time into...

And one doesn't engage in something that demands too much time.

Blanket statement

Lots of blanket statement made by everybody. Should we start finger-pointing match or something?

Reductio ad absurdum, as

The thread was going on for 14 pages, what the heck else would you expect at this point.

They were necessary... I can tell am deeply unhappy to code anything to prevent exploits.

Good.

by their respective frequency and look at the result.

Look. Make it something like N free RCRs per month total (instead of "Free RCR day") and see what happens. If it isn't good, axe it or adjust it. This called iterative development and it is is more useful than talking about it to the death. "N per months" means that you have "N" uses of free RCR npcs per month. Once you've run out of them, that's it. No more Free RCRs for you. One month later they regenerate. They number of available free RCRs does not go above "N", no matter how long you sit on them.

As for your statements on muling, I wish some of the BGTSCC devs took a look at sigil.
Basically, Sigil has vastly superior combat xp progression than bgtscc - and normally you can have a great time there without "lonely wandering through empty maps". Combat mechanics are MUCH more fun there. So, it would be a good idea to log on there and see how it works there and which ideas could be stolen and reused. If you ever feel like doing it, poke me, I could resurrect my baatezu and show you around.

[Deathgrowl]

Erm. I meant the default minimum set of equipment, not the ultra super mega rare stuff. Default expected gear on bgtscc is +3. Getting it is pain in the butt.

Nashkel, Baldur's Gate and Ulgoth's Beard all have basic +3 items from vendors. Sshamath and Rockrun too. Even if you loot rarely (why would you care about gear if you don't actually use it, though?) the prices are relatively easy to achieve.

As for your statements on muling, I wish some of the BGTSCC devs took a look at sigil.
Basically, Sigil has vastly superior combat xp progression than bgtscc - and normally you can have a great time there without "lonely wandering through empty maps". Combat mechanics are MUCH more fun there. So, it would be a good idea to log on there and see how it works there and which ideas could be stolen and reused. If you ever feel like doing it, poke me, I could resurrect my baatezu and show you around.

I hate to ask this, but why are you here...? Every other post seems to praise Sigil into the clouds. I am genuinely wondering what attracts you to BG. What makes it worth playing here?

I also feel like it may be a bit silly to point out, but Sigil and BGTSCC are quite vastly different settings. The fact that there are so many level 30s in such a small space on the prime is pretty ridiculous, which is why the DMs over the years have treated 30s as 15s by PnP standards - or NPCs by at least twice their PnP level. This is to protect the integrity of the setting. And that is very important.

Sigil is necessarily an epic setting as it is a planeswalker setting with a lot of outsiders. Having epic levels there only makes sense.

I think the core issue for myself is that post 20 is a longer journey, and a mistake at those higher levels can be detrimental to a successful build in many ways. Not game breaking as a rule, but it can be. It can be circumvented with hard work, or an RCR as it stands, it just requires a lot more time that I don't necessarily want to invest when I feel like it's throwing the dice because feats and spells are broken, and wrong builds suck (that I never seem to learn until 'too late' and I'm already there).

First, I just want to say that I'm very happy to see you concede the potential abuses of a frequent (or worse - unlimited) 100% RCR system.

Now, to your point in what I'm quoting here: The server doesn't have a very high difficulty from a balance perspective. You can do completely fine with any recommend spam build (as Valefort has demonstrated in the past, for instance) or just about any sub-par character. I have a rogue16/whirling dervish4/shadowdancer10 for instance, who has the absolutely mechanically useless stat of 14 charisma. But that character can, with some clever tactics and occasional consumables, solo 95% or more of the server.

What that means is even if you do make a mistake in your epic level progression, your character will be largely fine. And at the same time, we are quite a large amount of people with good knowledge of the mechanics of the game, even if some of us deliberately choose not to play the most powerful builds. And we are all very, very happy to help advice build progressions. Some of us (me included) actually enjoy the theoretical tinkering and optimising of builds based on described character concepts. So even if your concept doesn't really equate to one of the classical powerbuilds, we who enjoy messing around with these things can probably help you at the very least approximate your vision or fantasy for the character you have in mind. You need only ask. We'll jump at any opportunity to think about some new character.

I mean just ask chad, valefort, mrm3ntalist or practically anyone in QC (and certainly also some others!) and we are not only happy to help, but often genuinely eager to!

[NegInfinity]

Erm. I meant the default minimum set of equipment, not the ultra super mega rare stuff. Default expected gear on bgtscc is +3. Getting it is pain in the butt.

Nashkel, Baldur's Gate and Ulgoth's Beard all have basic +3 items from vendors. Sshamath and Rockrun too. Even if you loot rarely (why would you care about gear if you don't actually use it, though?) the prices are relatively easy to achieve.

You're talking about armor and weapon. Default equipment set on bgtscc includes Ring of Protection +3, Dodge Boots +3, Natural Armor +3.

I still have no idea if any shop on the server sells plain Rings/Boots/Amulet +3 with no other embellishments on them.

I hate to ask this, but why are you here...? Every other post seems to praise Sigil into the clouds. I am genuinely wondering what attracts you to BG. What makes it worth playing here?

If you hate to ask this, don't ask this. Otherwise it sounds like a roundabout attempt to show me the door. Also, I don't "praise it to the clouds", I simply mention good features that are present there. There were plenty of bad ones.

The reason for mentioning sigil is because there were some very awesome mechanics which I'd love to see here.

The fact that there are so many level 30s in such a small space on the prime is pretty ridiculous, which is why the DMs over the years have treated 30s as 15s by PnP standards

The whole 30s as 15s thing is philosophy to which only some people (and probably small number of them too) subscribe and not all of them. I don't subscribe to this philosophy and do not see it as reasonable (because levels in DND do not scale this way due to spellcasters being quadratic).

My personal interpretation is that BGTSCC is probably not the real toril but some sort of twisted reflection of it. This explains a lot of things, like time travelling shenanigans, one day having 4 sunrises, and epic level gate guards.

Any server that has existed for some time will have epic levels on it, regardless of what you do. You can't do a thing about it.

Sigil is necessarily an epic setting as it is a planeswalker setting with a lot of outsiders. Having epic levels there only makes sense.

However, the reason why I bring up sigil is not because of epic levels, but because there are features there that are fun and are missing from bgtscc. Combat is MUCH more fun. Progression is much more fun. A goblin at the 1st level feels like a goblin, and not as ubergoblin superboss of death. There's a functional "alter self" spell. Traders actually trade in game (or at least used to). There are flaws too, of course.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

We're not going to tally item ownership history on this PW. Not with the amount of objects moving around.

[Deathgrowl]

I'm still really, really, genuinely wondering what attracts you to BGTSCC, Negs. What do you think is so good about BGTSCC that you find it worth playing here?

I have, in recent times, tried another server (though I do tend towards BGTSCC anyways), and I also found some things about that particular server that deeply I miss on BGTSCC. But at the same time, I still find myself back here and when I add up the pros and cons, BGTSCC comes out on top. For me, at least.

[ShineDown]

Sigil has vastly superior combat xp progression than bgtscc

It doesn't man. It's vastly op. I respect folk that don't have as much patience but at the same time Sigil is way over the top.
BG isn't that bad.

[NegInfinity]

Sigil has vastly superior combat xp progression than bgtscc

It doesn't man. It's vastly op. I respect folk that don't have as much patience but at the same time Sigil is way over the top.
BG isn't that bad.

It does. BG combat always felt like a boring slog. On Sigil I could have fun through combat mechanics alone. Ramp difficulty to max, and hack away.

For example, the awesome moment on sigil was where my baatezu warlock ended up on lava cave on limbo. So here my character is... standing knee deep in the lava (because immunity to fire), surrounded by pile of dead pigs and rabbits (because baleful polymorph), while hordes of slaad charge in and warlock's Ashmede companion is hacking them into pieces with a scythe and glorious combat music is playing.

It was glorious. Geniuine "feel my powers Muahaha" moment. It felt like what a real devil is supposed to be.

I've never had this kind of combat experience on bgtscc. Never.

However.

I'm still really, really, genuinely wondering what attracts you to BGTSCC, Negs. What do you think is so good about BGTSCC that you find it worth playing here?

The reason why bgtscc is interesting is because you can bump into a dwarf in some dungeon have an amazing discussion, bask in that character's dwarfiness, then go out and get hammered together. The problem is ... those moments become harder and harder to come by as time marches on and majority of my time on bgtscc has been wandering through empty map alone. Looking for more of those encounters.

Basicaly. Sigil absolutely shines when it comes to combat. It is amazingly well crafted mechanical puzzle, where you can think from mechanical perspective -where this character of yours can succeed or not. For example, half-fiend will perform well in one zone, but will be destroyed in another. Werecreature will survive in another one. A tiefling, human will need a different strategy. The zones are small and manageable, and well designed. you can also actually create your own weapons. My Golem Master build all her equipment, for example.

The RP part, however... some of the more powerful creatures bring out the worst in the people, and "Campfire roleplay" is prevalent.

BGTSCC shines in RP aspect - when that RP happens. A chance of a decent encounter hapepning for me is 20% per play session. I still remember the feeling of amazement when I first played on BG when I wondered into new zone, accidentally walked into a palading event, had a chat about warlocks in a temple of lathander, or walked into beregost for the first to have people with lanterns stop me and question. This is the experience that happens here. And this is what I seek here.

Unfortuantely as time passes, those things become less and less frequent, and BG experience becomes very lonely. I meet no one, see no one to interact with, there are no more armies of paladins hunting some fiends in nearby areas, etc. The magic has... faded.

Mechanical aspect on bgtscc, however... is very poor. Combat is generally bland and uninteresting, with an exceptio nof a small number of maps. You can't make your own equipment, there are no actual traders in the world, and very often the whole thing feels like a decoration..

Something like this.

Perhaps this answers your question.

[chad878262]

I am one of the people who has very limited time to play. I go 3-4 months a year where I do not log in at all... Far more active on forums I guess because it gives me a connection to the server and all of you when I know I can't get in game.

That said, anyone who has read any threads on xp progression, xp pools or just about anything regarding XP will know that my personal stance is I am fine with the overall progression, but I feel it needs to be more consistent from 1-20 and 21-30. It is ridiculous to me that you can earn as much as 6,000 XP / hour grinding until you hit 20 and then at best you are down to 2,000 XP / hour, maybe 2,500 with a group in a really good zone.

Wanting a more consistent leveling process is one thing...wanting to have a level 30 ANY CHARACTER/BUILD you want at all times is quite another. If you have built to a level 30 character than you have earned THAT character. You have NOT earned the right to a level 30 any build. There have been a few baby steps that help the leveling progression in epics, but it really is not enough. When that's addressed, the question of free RCR for MOST players will go away. There will always be a few that want free RCR whenever they want it, but the majority will be happy with a more consistent/rewarding path to 30. Gaining levels at once per 1-2 1/2 hours of play up to 20 and then once per 10-20 hours of play in epics is simply too inconsistent and in my opinion is what causes the feeling that it's a grind and no fun. It would be like playing PnP and leveling up every other session until you hit level 10 and than all the sudden you don't level up for 20 sessions, all the while being stuck in the same dungeon. Eventually you feel like you are watching reruns.

Another issue is that there are far more dungeons for CR 1-20, yet you spend more than double the time going from 20-30... (and only 5 CR 25-30 areas...) If there were more area's CR 21-31 it would not be as much of a grind because you could actually go check out different area's instead of the same few... dedude's dynamic spawns helped this, but there is still way more area's than are needed in CR's 1-20 (1-5 especially...15 area's when going through 1 area gets you to the next level!) Simply removing or re-purposing some maps to the higher CR would do a world of good in the epic leveling experience.

I mean just ask chad, valefort, mrm3ntalist or practically anyone in QC (and certainly also some others!) and we are not only happy to help, but often genuinely eager to!

QFT. I get a few PM's every week requesting me to either critique a build or provide a build. I have never turned anyone down. If someone is finding content too challenging and doesn't want to roll the 'standard' build everyone plays that is where I love to theory craft. I've said it in threads before, but when putting a build up with limited detail of the ask I'm always going to optimize, but the builds I actually play or provide with specific detailed information around the RP of the character are far more fun to create!

[Incarnate]

One simple fact that makes it much more of a grind in general but especially at higher levels is the xp rewards being so low as compared to PnP, speaking of which - the monsters doesn't give what they would've been giving and considering the monsters are considerably harder than what their CR suggests, then they're actually rewarding even lower than what they should be.
This is both due to the xp cap and the xp rates being reduced.

A standard kobold is a CR1/4 monster.

A party of 4 at level 1 vs 4 kobolds at CR1/4 = 75 XP for each character.
A party of 4 at level 2 vs 1 kobolds at CR2 = 150 XP for each character

What a party of 4 at level 2 gets for killing a CR2 is around 40-50 XP, if I'm not mistaken.
This means, that it takes considerably longer to progress.
Say one is leveling from 2 to 3, then that character needs 3000xp to level - thats at least 40 kobolds at CR2 - so its not that weird it feels like a grind, because it is a grind. This only gets exponentially worse as the level increment. And this only gets much worse when doing level 20+.

The only way, its going to feel less like a grind is when it is less of a grind, one way as mentioned is to have way more areas, another one is to have xp rewards to be significantly higher. I don't know if this is done, but epic campaigns (events).

[NegInfinity]

When that's addressed, the question of free RCR for MOST players will go away.

IF that's ever addressed.

Rebalancing the whole content takes longer than enabling occasional free rebuild.

Keep your available resources and manpower in mind.

[Planehopper]

Just a friendly reminder to keep this on topic as closely as you can. Its a very long thread, with lots of circular discussions and repetitive arguments, but I'd like to keep it open so long as the topic is being discussed.

If you'd like to expound on muling, xp gain, or progression (and yes I see they are tangentially related) it would be best to open new topics rather than make this one any more difficult to wade through.

Thanks

[Sun Wukong]

I asked this earlier:

I changed the name of my character with the disguise tool bug, I changed the deity in Nexus, I changed the appearance of the character's items, and I came up with entirely new interaction tangent for that character. Is it still the same old character, or is it a new character?

It's the same old character pretending to be different - play your character sheet.

He is still the same character in disguise. HE knows the difference even if he fools some others.

He also (without RCR) has the same abilities, skills and feats.

I disagree. So here is another question:

A new character is created, it shares the same name as one the old characters, but it has different deity, different alignment, different classes, different skills, different ability scores, and it even uses a different head and hair models. Is it still the same old character? Or is the new character just pretending to be the old character in disguise.

Or what of this additional question:
If I make a character with the exact same name and character sheet as your character, down even to the minute detail of your inventory slots, am I now playing your character?

Or what if I make two characters with the exact same build? Are they the same?

Because in a way, in my opinion, the server already has a partial 100% RCR. You just need to change the name, deity, appearance, and you can easily role-play a brand new character. The changes you can make are limited, but in my opinion you can have a brand new character in this manner.