bard/DP/OWD change

[aaron22]

now i know this will not be enjoyed by many. mostly those who play these builds. and i think of this as just a think tank on a concept. so feel free to voice opinions. as if i need to tell you that

the idea is to make music players actually need to play music to get their bonuses. lets use bard as they are the most notable of the group.

-instruments create a -10AB/-3Dmg with them when equipped.
-feats and class skills like but not limited to inspire courage, curse song and fascinate require an instrument to be equipped in order to be used.
- spells given from the class or classes that allow spellcasting progression will require an instrument to be equip in order to be available.
-constant feats like inspire courage will have a duration that starts once a instrument is unequipped. refreshed again once an instrument is equipped for a complete round.

[Planehopper]

I tap the beat with my fists yo

[aaron22]

I tap the beat with my fists yo

and it turns out that is less than inspiring

[NegInfinity]

the idea is to make music players actually need to play music to get their bonuses.

A bard can sing mid battle. Bard's voice is a musical instrument and is always equipped.

Right now they're singing when there is no instrument equipped.

[chad878262]

My Bards are using a kazoo a la Monty Python or Robin Hood Men in Tights...

[Planehopper]

I actually don't hate the premise - determine a way to have bards be more than buff-monsters by adding flavor - I just don't know that your concept or implementation idea is very likely.

It would be more likely to be welcomed if there was an incentive, but then again bards need nothing to boost them further, so what type of incentive?

[aaron22]

i would be open to suggestions on incentives, but i really do not think they need incentives..

but lets look at incentives to the altered gameplay of a popular and powerful class.

right off the top of my head. followers. a selection of a kind of summon that is not a summon in a magical sense. an idea coming from the pied piper theme. something that has bard progression involved to follow in the growth (or lack there of) in the bard/DP/OWD.

enchanting tune I (levels 1-7)
edit: summon lasts for 1 hour and has a duration of 2 minutes if instrument is unequipped refreshing if instrument is equipped inside the two minutes.
summon 1d4+cha mod one of the following creatures 1/day:
type chosen upon feat aquisition

commoner-mixed (good/neutral/evil) based on current alignment
commoner-human
commoner-elf
commoner-dwarf
commoner-orc
commoner-etc,etc,etc
rat
spider
crab
badger
snake
beetle
others

this takes the swarm slot on a active summons list.

enchanting tune II (8-14)

bandit-mixed (good/nuetral/evil) based on current alignment
bandit-human
bandit-etc
kobold
goblin
wolf
skeleton
war dog
large cat
others

enchanting tune III (15-21)

enchanting tune IV (22-28)

enchanting tune V (29-30)

balancing issues and playabilty to alter and account for ET "summons" but this for idea's sake.

[aaron22]

i do not believe this will be applied at all either. i think something making bards more bardly would be good, but a change now would create such a mess.

[Khazrak]

From D&D 3.5 SRD, there are multiple different kinds of Perform a person could be using. I'll highlight in bold the ones which require no instrument:

Act
Dance
Comedy
Keyboard Instruments
Oratory
Percussion Instruments
String Instruments
Wind Instruments
Sing

Acting is obvious; singing is obvious; dancing is obvious. Comedy involves delivering punch-lines, witty quips, or mocking the enemy. Oratory involves delivering uplifting speech or shouting warcries or inspiring commands. You don't need a lute to be a bard.

I actually favor Oratory and Comedy when I play Bards in Pathfinder as I have a terrible singing voice, though I'll also use instruments sometimes - but it's harder to have a good reason for using, say, a set of drums mid-fight when your hands need to have weapons in them. (I suppose quick draw might do the trick?)

[aaron22]

when posting, i knew khazrak's defense would be the biggest hurdle (besides ruining the builds of a hundred or more players LOL). and i would say that perform in dancing/singing/acting/etc are better done when not in the middle of a fight to the death. that being able to move freely without having to swing an axe and parry a blow is a better setting for a performance. the equipped item for acting or singing whatever would be tied directly to that action. like a mask on a stick thing for acting or a singing bullhorn.

the idea isnt flawless. jeez

[Cenerae]

Being forced to equip an instrument would essentially make bards little more than a glorified buff bot.

I get that their songs are really, really strong, but I don't think making them walking buff aoes is the right way to go about adjusting them, and that's even before we get into the stuff already brought up.

Can you imagine trying to play a bard like this? You'd have to be constantly swapping between your instrument and your actual weapon/s and shield whenever you wanted to do anything at all regarding your songs. That might sound fine for the more powerful songs at high level, but having to hotswap equipment just to maintain an aura? Nobody else has to do that, that I can think of. It would make it awful to play.

If bard songs are too powerful, then they should just be toned down. Trying to shoehorn in a huge penalty via mandatory instrument use is not the way, imo. Besides, not all bards even play an instrument.

[electric mayhem]

I've done it before, support a group purely through music, lute equipped. Drag the sword out when an enemy gets too close.

I can't remember a single FR story I've read where a bard is a one stop shop of death and destruction, and still manages to put out awe inspiring songs in mid battle.
Chosen of mystra aside.

From what I remember in the stories, bards get brought along as Lore keepers, story tellers, Deal makers for caravans, and a little magic here and there. I don't feel that they are meant to be the primary front line warriors. They entertain the warriors.

[NegInfinity]

They entertain the warriors.

possibly by hacking things to pieces while cracking jokes...

[aaron22]

Being forced to equip an instrument would essentially make bards little more than a glorified buff bot.

I get that their songs are really, really strong, but I don't think making them walking buff aoes is the right way to go about adjusting them, and that's even before we get into the stuff already brought up.

Can you imagine trying to play a bard like this? You'd have to be constantly swapping between your instrument and your actual weapon/s and shield whenever you wanted to do anything at all regarding your songs. That might sound fine for the more powerful songs at high level, but having to hotswap equipment just to maintain an aura? Nobody else has to do that, that I can think of. It would make it awful to play.

If bard songs are too powerful, then they should just be toned down. Trying to shoehorn in a huge penalty via mandatory instrument use is not the way, imo. Besides, not all bards even play an instrument.

Bard

I've done it before, support a group purely through music, lute equipped. Drag the sword out when an enemy gets too close.

I can't remember a single FR story I've read where a bard is a one stop shop of death and destruction, and still manages to put out awe inspiring songs in mid battle.
Chosen of mystra aside.

From what I remember in the stories, bards get brought along as Lore keepers, story tellers, Deal makers for caravans, and a little magic here and there. I don't feel that they are meant to be the primary front line warriors. They entertain the warriors.

Not Bard

[Khazrak]

Let me give you a few examples of bards I've played over the years:

There was Raphaele Fiddlesticks, the gnomish Archivist (Pathfinder archetype for bards), the world's biggest nerd. He didn't do Inspire Courage so much as he spouted lore midfight, explaining how best to fight this golem or that elemental or reminding his teammates to duck, the ignoramuses! I used a combination of Oratory and Comedy for this, and my character typically was either holding a crossbow or a buckler and a wooden chair leg he used as a club. Despite being a terrible prankster at heart, he was the group's chief source of knowledge, their moral compass, the support member of the team, and the one who brought some mirth to the party when they sat down to camp.

Then there was a more typical Skald type character I played in 3.5. He was the spear-and-shield variety of Viking, belting out war ballads and banging his shield to strike fear in the enemy while stabbing at them in melee combat. He was almost as fierce a warrior as the party's fighter, and was more than happy to lead the charge. You wouldn't find him with a lute any day; he was in the melee to stay.

Then there was my happy little lizardfolk wardrummer. He kept his drums everywhere, and always had them readily accessible. I had a pair of maces that I got permission to use both for drumming and for cracking skulls, so this 6'something lizard would rush into battle playing drums only to smash someone in the face mid-song. Pretty fun - and he never had to drop his weapons to use his instrument.

I never played a spoony bard with a lute. I've used a violin for a dirge type bard, and I had a battle dancer (focusing on perform dance), but the fact is that all of the above characters are bards. Yes: the one with the lute, the lizardfolk with the drums, the pale dirgesinger with a sharpened fiddle blade, the skald with a spear and a shield, the stupid gnome setting unholy texts on fire to anger the local Asmodaeus clergy... Yeah. They're all bards. You can't change that.

And remember that a bard is so much more than a musician. Bardic knowledge is a huge part of the class; and so is spellcasting; and their 6+ skill points aren't just spent on Perform. They are jacks of all trades that fill whatever role is needed, the essential Fifth Man to any adventuring group. And they are NOT forced to use a musical instrument.

One of the things that attracts me to bards as a player is just how many different ways you can play them. Fighters hit things; wizards are good at magic; but bards, bards can be portrayed in so many different ways. I love it.

Now, a better suggestion would be to ask people to actually roleplay their damned Bardic abilities every now and then. I know of... I think one bard on this server that actually does it. Shout out to you, the Great Oz. Love your bard RP.