Bard - Fist of the Forest

[Sun Wukong]

I used to have a Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Fist of the Forest/Shadowdancer on this server... Bit of a Conan build that was, shields used to work with Fist of the Forest, but not any more as far as I know.

[Khazrak]

It's a tough sell because if you wear a shield you ain't wearing a lute.

[Sun Wukong]

But for a little under 100k, you can buy a drum that might provide some extra AC (+3) from the 'Avernus Merchant' at the Wide. And with all the magical lutes and what not around, I could just collect those for funsies... Spam flutes of blasting for example!

But yeah, Northlander Hewing would be a good idea.

I mean the damage is pretty much just:

1d3 (Fist)
+ 1d4 (Fist of the Forest)
+ 4 (Enchantment Bonus)
+ 6 (Inspire Courage)
+ 6 (Strength modifier)
= 20.5~ (Without Sonic Weapon spell.)

With Northlander Hewing, I imagine that the damage would be:
3 (Fist)
+4 (Fist of the Forest, if maximised, I think it should be.)
+6 (Inspire Courage)
+6 (Strength Modifier)
+6 (Northlander Hewing)
= 25~ (Without Sonic Weapon spell.)

The +4.5 damage is not a great trade off in my opinion, not at the cost of losing a third of my attacks, and lowering AC. It would be fun though, to be throwing hewing punches, but the feat does not seem to be really worth it.

[Khazrak]

Yeah, it's one of those "maybe this would be useful" things that I wasn't sure whether to even suggest it or not. But note, there ARE gloves that'll boost your damage considerably. I just wish you had access to Flurry of Blows or SOMETHING like that to keep your # of attacks up.

Definitely voting dwarf bard, though - gold dwarf, as said. Definitely voting either Bard/FotF or Bard/Fighter/FotF. You've got Sonic Weapon, magical gloves, haste... There's goodies for you out there.

I just wish Monkey Grip would let you one-hand lutes.

[Sun Wukong]

Lol... I just reread my previous post... "Yeah, it would be a good idea... *Writes things down.* No this is a horrible idea."

As for number of attacks, I should be able to get 6 with haste. Perhaps Craft Wand for wands of haste or something could be a reasonable investment.

But were I to drop Bard altogether, or cut it down, perhaps I could go for some kind of Fighter or Barbarian for extra strength based damage. Fighter has those feats, and Barbarian has rage, which could be combined with Combat Focus feats, Stunning Fist without Monk, high wisdom Zen Archery and Fiery fist. Add in some Phantom for wisdom AC.

I know monk is a good way to get those unarmed feats and wisdom AC, but then the Stunning Fist use progression would be determined solely by your limited number of monk levels. Three level monk would get three uses of stunning fist, while a Stunning Fist outside of monk would get 7 uses with 28 level character. Hmn... Going for Improved Flurry of Blows would net you more uses of Stunning Fist...


But anyhow, Fighter 24/Phantom 3/Fist of the Forest, or Barbarian 24/Phantom 3/Fist of the Forest 3 could be interesting...

Thoughts, comments?

[aaron22]

could go lock as your platform to to increase the damage (hell punching skald?).

think phantom is the best choice. need anything to boost that damage. RP way off the mark?

without something to give damage dice, your DPR is gonna be so low, i do not think you will like it. the ac/saves not high enough to support the low DPR.

[chad878262]

You could limit your Bard levels to still be a Bard/Fist Fighter... What about:

B8/F12/FotF3/WM7 - Won't crit a whole bunch, but should have decent damage and, even without the crits it will still have Inspire Courage and Epic Weapon Specialization/Melee Mastery.

Could also drop WM for Frenzied Berzerker, adding 2 more levels to Fighter for an extra feat, as well as Enhanced IPA for -6 AB, +10 damage with fists.

1d3 (Fist)
+ 1d4 (Fist of the Forest)
+ 4 (Enchantment Bonus)
+ 3 (Inspire Courage)
+ 6 (Strength modifier)
+ 8 (EWS+MM)
+10 (EIPA)
= ~35.5 average damage

Attack Bonus would be 28 (BAB) + 6 (STR) + 4 (EB) + 6 (EWF+MM) + 3 (Inspire Courage) = 47, 41 with EIPA up which should be fine.
The Weapon Master will be at only 25.5 damage, but on crits all the majority of that damage would be multiplied (I don't recall if Inspire Courage crits, but I think it does).

[aaron22]

Does P stand for Phantom (Ph) or Paladin (Pa)?

sorry. p=stands for phantom.

[Sun Wukong]

could go lock as your platform to to increase the damage (hell punching skald?).

Warlock 27/Fist of the Forest 3? I don't think it can maximise Perform Skill without some additional multiclassing.

[aaron22]

i was thinking lock 21/FotF3/B6

not great as CL25 will make you vulnerable to dispels, but as a lock that is not a HUGE problem. essentially a dex/con build. starting 16 dex+4 for 20 and con pumping to get HP's, AC and saves. access to E.master so blast dice and/or fast healing in epics. no EW so hitting might be a chore. damage should be at least usable and defenses decent. you are 3/3/3/3 in spells so that is good.

could go dex route to improve AB but HP's will be lower and saves worse. prolly wont work.

[chad878262]

Hideous Blow only applies on the first attack so going heavy warlock is going to make the rest of your attacks really weak. AB will also be low so really would just end up being a blaster lock, making FotF pointless.

[aaron22]

Hideous Blow only applies on the first attack so going heavy warlock is going to make the rest of your attacks really weak. AB will also be low so really would just end up being a blaster lock, making FotF pointless.

i think so too. an unarmored and unarmed character without monk or shapechange is a tough build. that is why i leaned on the rogue/phantom style. the lock build was just another to get the numbers in a better place.

[chad878262]

Hideous Blow only applies on the first attack so going heavy warlock is going to make the rest of your attacks really weak. AB will also be low so really would just end up being a blaster lock, making FotF pointless.

i think so too. an unarmored and unarmed character without monk or shapechange is a tough build. that is why i leaned on the rogue/phantom style. the lock build was just another to get the numbers in a better place.

But even there, you are only going to get 2 of your fist attacks landing sneaks. Much better to go for a crit build that does ~25 damage per hit and ~75 per crit or EIPA to get ~35 per hit, ~70 per crit. Consider that adding say 10 levels of Rogue gets you 5d6 sneak dice (17.5 avg. per sneak atk dmg added). 12 levels of fighter gets you +8 dmg to every hit, which if you hit 4 times is 32 dmg vs. the 35 you're getting from 5d6 sneak dice. In addition, you are not hampered by crit immune enemies and you have enough attack bonus to do fine throughout the server. Main issue is really defense, not offense. Such a build really needs wands to ensure solid AC and for purposes of applying mantles when needed.

Don't get me wrong, it's no secret I love me some sneaks... But being a fist fighter is not really great for it. It will work, sure, but without feint it's not going to do very well for crit immunes... In fact I would say such a build would work just great in the Upperdark / Underdark where many enemies are fairly susceptible to a well built feinter. However, on the surface feint becomes relatively useless as you approach epics. This makes a build that essentially only does damage on the first two hits really weak.

[aaron22]

But even there, you are only going to get 2 of your fist attacks landing sneaks. Much better to go for a crit build that does ~25 damage per hit and ~75 per crit or EIPA to get ~35 per hit, ~70 per crit. Consider that adding say 10 levels of Rogue gets you 5d6 sneak dice (17.5 avg. per sneak atk dmg added). 12 levels of fighter gets you +8 dmg to every hit, which if you hit 4 times is 32 dmg vs. the 35 you're getting from 5d6 sneak dice. In addition, you are not hampered by crit immune enemies and you have enough attack bonus to do fine throughout the server. Main issue is really defense, not offense. Such a build really needs wands to ensure solid AC and for purposes of applying mantles when needed.

Don't get me wrong, it's no secret I love me some sneaks... But being a fist fighter is not really great for it. It will work, sure, but without feint it's not going to do very well for crit immunes... In fact I would say such a build would work just great in the Upperdark / Underdark where many enemies are fairly susceptible to a well built feinter. However, on the surface feint becomes relatively useless as you approach epics. This makes a build that essentially only does damage on the first two hits really weak.

the defense of the fist fighting fighter is where i run into the mental snafu. toons not built at all to run unarmored just piles on. a two handed f/fb/wm style is kind of soft even with full plate. the DPR output keeps it alive en lue of the defense. i was leaning to a minimal amount of bard and Fotf and making rogue or phantom the platform pushing levels there and even trying to get hips for the rogue. rogue up to 17 so the yummy bits are still available.

i would defer to you 100%, chad, on a rogue build. so if you say this is a no-go, then i should believe it so.

fighter doesnt seem good to me though either defense.

[chad878262]

Well, either way, the AC is bad and the DPS is not enough to make it better. However, with Mithral full plate you could have:

10 + 11 ( MFP and 16 DEX) + 6 (IMA Wand) + 12 (Deflection/Dodge/Natural) + 4 (Shield wand/ring/token/potions) +3 (Tumble) + 1 (LOH) + 1 (Armor Skin) = 48. Not fantastic, but certainly serviceable for the majority of the server. If you were to equip a Tower Shield you would go up to 52 which is pretty solid IMO, but I think you lose the 1d4 bonus damage from FotF... Still may be worth it to carry one around for when you need the extra AC. Finally, with all those Fighter Feats you could always pick up CE/ICE to use when extra AC is needed... Just switch between IPA and ICE as the situation demands.

Adding Rogue/Phantom doesn't help with AC, though HiPS certainly helps defense... It is simply going to take FOREVER to kill anything using HiPS when you are only getting 2 attacks in the first flurry. I suppose it depends on your stamina for kiting mobs with HiPS...killing them softly...