Rogue or Phantom kit - +Damage instead of Sneak Attack Dice

[Sun Wukong]

Doesn't matter if it is Rogue or Phantom, but getting +1 damage instead of sneak attack progression would be fun. (+15 damage at rogue/phantom level 29)

[chad878262]

Only if it ignores DR...

[Sun Wukong]

I would say DR is DR and DR should absorb damage, but maybe it could go through DR if you have Epic Precision?

[Khazrak]

Like, +damage that applies to every attack, no matter what? No flanking, stealth, or feinting necessary? No wincing at the idea of fighting oozes or undead? Any range you want?

That wouldn't be terrible. I mean, a Fighter has Weapon Spec at level 4 for +2 damage. A rogue would, at that level, also have +2 damage. It's a lot of flat +damage and I could see rogue archers/slingers with manyshot being a thing.

Unless you mean solely just +1 damage, but still with the normal difficulties. In which case, what do you get in return?

[Sun Wukong]

A Rogue or Phantom 29 would get +15 damage per every hit made with the suggested kit. There can be weapon limitations and what not, but it does not change the fact that these classes come with medium BAB progression.

22 + 10 (Ability score) + 4 (Enchantment Bonus) = 36... Which is not that great against the end game content on its own. If you multiclass, the damage per hit drops.

But it would be an alternative to the usual sneak or feint based rogue/phantom. You could try something different, while being a rogue or phantom. I think it would work best on a Phantom actually. (The Ki Powers, Greater Ki Dodge.)

[aaron22]

maybe a good test as a thug/bruiser type kit for rogue

[Khazrak]

Yeah, I see where you're going with this. I think it'd make ranged rogues very, very viable, or ranged phantoms for that matter. I imagine a high DEX rogue/monk or phantom/monk with flurry and rapid shot could be fun. Halfling, perhaps? (Wouldn't have to dip further than 4 levels into Monk to really get that flurry feeling good.)

Something to consider: while medium BAB sucks, you could easily multiclass in such a way that the BAB doesn't hurt at all - again, especially if doing ranged. 4 fighter levels, 5 elemental archer levels, 21 rogue levels? 23 BAB, which, well, that hurts... But that's an assured +11 damage per shot from rogue, +4 damage per shot from fighter, +2 damage per shot from elemental archer; and with Weapon Mastery and accurate shot you've got +4 extra attack bonus via feats/abilities from the dips. Tack on a decent STR bonus with a sling or longbow and you're not in bad shape.

With all that said, this is still less damage than a rogue normally does with Epic Precision and sneak attack, assuming the rogue uses HIPS or something to make it happen. This is also less damage than Epic Divine Might cranks out. This has no spellcasting, either. What it DOES have is the ability to consistently do damage with each shot, no matter what, so long as it's accurate enough to actually hits the target.

My biggest concern is "Where does this put Rangers?" Rangers can't get that much damage from their Favored Enemy bonuses. My Ranger/Cavestalker should end with 8 Favored Enemies, which means +8 damage to each enemy. Bane of Enemies pushes this to 10-20 damage per favored enemy, and this requires some feat expenditure. The rogue just deals +15 damage to every enemy. Now, with all that said, the Ranger has a repetoire of spells available to counter that as well as Full BAB and an animal companion (and one spell in particular, Arrowsplit, is REALLY good at pushing ranger damage skyward)... But it's something to consider.

I think the idea could work. There's considerations to be made yet, but flat +damage could be really good for the rogue. Hopefully we'll see more brutish rogues, too. STR-heavy TWFers that don't use stealth but just slam their weapons into you? With Northlander Hewing, perhaps? I'm digging some of the options this would allow.

[Khazrak]

maybe a good test as a thug/bruiser type kit for rogue

My thought exactly. This could work really well as a "Grr, smash!" type of rogue. I do think weapon considerations need to be made. Perhaps disallowing ranged weapons works? But I can see that just leading to someone asking for such restrictions to be lifted later down the line.

It's a tough call for me. I like the idea; I just worry if it might edge out a few characters. But then... that's not so much a concern, I suppose, because the HIPSters are arguably better already.

[Sun Wukong]

My biggest concern is "Where does this put Rangers?" Rangers can't get that much damage from their Favored Enemy bonuses. My Ranger/Cavestalker should end with 8 Favored Enemies, which means +8 damage to each enemy. Bane of Enemies pushes this to 10-20 damage per favored enemy, and this requires some feat expenditure. The rogue just deals +15 damage to every enemy. Now, with all that said, the Ranger has a repetoire of spells available to counter that as well as Full BAB and an animal companion (and one spell in particular, Arrowsplit, is REALLY good at pushing ranger damage skyward)... But it's something to consider.

I am not so sure about that.

Rangers have full BAB. Rangers can pick Two-Weapon or Ranged Combat, style which frees both feats and ability scores to be used elsewhere. You could have a strength based Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting character gets additional +1d8 Fire damage from the Blades of Fire spell. With ranged you can easily choose between Dexterity or Wisdom based archer character. The first is one of the best sneakers in the game, and the other can buff up both himself and his animal companion. Not to mention that even if you ignore the combat feats, you can make a strength based two-handed Ranger 25/Frenzied Berserker 5 that gets that Favored Power Attack against all 6 of his favored enemies. Rangers are a beast to deal with. Rangers are still more than valid choice.