The Old Order and the Wall of the Faithless

[Arn]

This is a chunk of lore research that no one asked for, but it is relevant to one of my characters, and I figured I would post it here to see what people think.

I had assumed for years that monks of the Old Order are doomed to the Wall since they do not worship any gods. However, subsequent research indicates that this is probably not the case. There are a few reasons for this.

1. It seems that mere lack of worship doesn't make one Faithless. A player once asked Ed Greenwood, "...I've wondered about that myself sometimes, since some characters do not pay homage to one particular deity, but maybe several, or none in particular, but will say things like "by the gods!" How does this relate to the wall of the Faithless and the False? Is that reserved for those who don't acknowledge the gods at all or?" (Emphasis added.)
Ed Greenwood replied, "The Wall of the Faithless and the False are for those who repudiate some or all of the gods, or seek to defy “the system” (usually because they have become insane) by denying that the gods and faith have any usefulness or validity at all - - or who assert that EVERYTHING mortals know about the gods is utterly wrong because the gods deceive mortals habitually, all the time, about all matters..." -So Saith Ed, 8/9/12

2. It also seems possible to pay homage to a god (thereby avoiding the Wall) while still not worshipping a god (thereby following the Old Order's code). In support of this distinction between homage and worship, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 290, says, "...most intelligent people worship more than one god, or at least pay homage to different gods when the circumstances are appropriate." (Emphasis added.) So a monk of the Old Order could pay homage to Chauntea when farming, while not outright worshipping her.
EDIT: Also, at page 39: "At appropriate moments, characters might worship or pay homage to nearly all the deities, even some they could not choose as patron deities. For example, lawful good sailors would never think of choosing Umberlee, the evil goddess of the ocean, as their patron, but it would be hard to find a sailor who had not sacrificed to Umberlee before at least one journey, or made promises to her during a storm. Likewise, an evil follower of Mask, the god of thieves, might make a donation to the temple of Tymora, goddess of luck, before a big heist, even though Tymora is a good goddess." (Emphasis added.)

3. Furthermore, it seems that having a patron deity is not the same as worship. "A character's choice of a patron deity does not create any special obligation for that character. Choosing a patron merely indicates which deity happens to be the character’s personal favorite. A character's choice of a patron reflects the character's ambitions and self-image (most people want to be as much like their patron deity as possible for a mortal), and reflects the character's values." FRCS, page 290.

4. Finally, a person could still avoid the Wall of the Faithless after death, even without worshipping, paying homage, or having a patron deity in life. "Even if a player has not chosen a patron deity for his character before the character meets her death, the player can choose one at the time of the character's death. If the player decides not to choose a patron once his character has died, the character is truly faithless and must take his chances with the rest of the unclaimed souls of the Fugue Plane. If the player decides to declare a patron, he should choose a deity the character has shown at least some interest in. Even if the character has never actively shown interest in any particular god, the way the character has been played usually will suggest a god. For example, a character of good alignment who has devoted himself to magic would naturally gravitate toward Mystra, whereas an adventurer of almost any class or alignment might naturally gravitate to Shaundakul if he had a zest for travel or exploration. In short, there is one cardinal rule regarding characters and patron deities: Never punish a player for not writing down a patron deity on his character sheet." FRCS, page 290.

TL;DR: It seems a monk of the Old Order can respect the gods, even if he would not outright worship them.

[Darradarljod]

Very interesting!

[Lockonnow]

could it be Charred Walls of the Damned i belive the the wall has been mentioned in the bible to

[Arn]

3. Furthermore, it seems that having a patron deity is not the same as worship. "A character's choice of a patron deity does not create any special obligation for that character. Choosing a patron merely indicates which deity happens to be the character’s personal favorite. A character's choice of a patron reflects the character's ambitions and self-image (most people want to be as much like their patron deity as possible for a mortal), and reflects the character's values." FRCS, page 290.

The more I read, the less I am certain about this point. While having a patron deity is not the same as worship (because you can worship multiple deities, but you can only have one patron), it could be argued that you automatically worship any patron deity (after all, clerics and druids must have a patron deity). In other words, maybe "choosing a patron merely indicates which deity happens to be the character’s personal favorite" among the deities he worships.

The closest that the FRCS comes to addressing this question for monks is at page 24: "Unlike clerics and druids, monks do not necessarily have to choose a patron deity (although most do)..." and at page 39: "The selection of a patron deity does not mean that your character only worships or makes prayers and offerings to one deity."

I would say that you can definitely worship a deity without making him your patron. But I am not sure if you can have a patron without worshiping him or paying homage to him.

Thoughts?

[scriver]

I believe one must draw a line between the patron-worshipper relationship between a deity and a divine spellcaster and the patron-worshipper relationship between a deity and your average dude.

A divinecaster obviously needs to worship their patron deity. It is their patron deity that is the source of their spellcasting abilities, after all.

For ordinary people, on the other hand, the relationship seems to be a lot more blurred. There the meaning of "patron" just seem to indicate, as it said in the quotes, one's "main" or "favourite" deity among the many one has worshipped, or perhaps more sensibly the one with the most influence over or relevance to one's daily life.

[Hoihe]

While someone who gives homage to the gods is indeed not Faithless (so they don't go to the wall), but they may become False.

A False becomes a guardian of the City of the Dead. A False is someone who grossly violated the dogma of their patron. Or if there was no violation, they still did not do anything to support that patron's cause (lip service).

Lip service (proportional to the ability of the individual depending on the god, like Ilmater won't ask a beggar to give away what little they have vs noble who hoards but claims worship) and violation of the dogma (with no saving grace/atonement) lead to being a False and your deity not sending their servant.

[Arn]

Oooh, good point about the False. I think that may be the piece I was missing.

"A character's choice of a patron deity does not create any special obligation for that character." So maybe you can have a patron deity without worshipping the deity. Maybe you don't even have to do anything for the deity. But if you literally never do anything for your patron deity's cause, that's where being False comes in.

But would you agree that furthering the deity's cause through your actions keep you from being False?

[Hoihe]

Oooh, good point about the False. I think that may be the piece I was missing.

"A character's choice of a patron deity does not create any special obligation for that character." So maybe you can have a patron deity without worshipping the deity. Maybe you don't even have to do anything for the deity. But if you literally never do anything for your patron deity's cause, that's where being False comes in.

But would you agree that furthering the deity's cause through your actions keep you from being False?

As long as the final sum of your actions upon entering the Fugue plane indicate you weren't hindering their mission on the Prime Material, yes. Now, whether you did enough depends on your ability and the deity themselves.

Bane will be much more likely to denounce you as false for not following his exact creed compared to Bhaal who is happy if you are just a generic murderer. Tyr will look past an uneducated man killing another out of passion, but will not forgive someone who is supposed to be his representative unless they go out of their way to atone.

If you're some random commoner, Sehanine won't hold it against you if you don't hunt undead and is perfectly happy that you spent time every now and then contemplating the future, the stars/moon and nature of dreams. However, if you are a level 15 accomplished adventurer with either the coin or ability to fight undead, never fighting them will leave her miffed at your lack of dedication.

[Sun Wukong]

There are so many deities on the setting that it takes dedicated effort to piss off each and everyone one of them.

For example, the previously mentioned rich follower of 'Ilmater' - was probably more blessed by Waukeen than anything else. Paying homage to Ilmater was just one way to grease elbows with those who held power in the city.