Magic in the Realms

[Steve]

It's easy to say our characters are not Elminster in power, but mechanically, they are! And BGTSCC had a "rule" of Play your Character Sheet. So it is understandable that people play their lvl 30s as Demi-God like powerful, because they are, slaying dracoliches and boring old normal lichs on a weekly basis for farts and laughs and loots. Lol.

And yes, far too many DM events and even Server Campaigns were "ended" by one uber PC taking down the massively powerful NPC. I can easily name names, but not interested in getting a Forum ban for pointing people out.

The conundrum IS that our toons are Level 30 mechanically powerful Demi-gods, but those Characters are also repeatedly humbled by RP and mechanics scripted to make them subject to Flaming Fist officers, as example. There are descripencies everywhere.

The only thing that CAN be done is that Players take a more humble and Lore-appropriate relation to Magic, and invest into its existence as rare, powerful and, wait for it, unreliable.

Because actually, if you don't do this, you're near meta-gaming by OOC knowledge that mechanics work like X all the time, when for our Toons in-character, this would be far from the Truth.

[Sun Wukong]

Or maybe you could just double the NPC levels and enchantments in your mind. Elminster is not some random level 30~ character with an illegal build on this server, he is some random level 60~ character with an illegal build on this server.

Not to mention that the 'epic +4 equipment' that our characters have access to with spells or store bought items are more akin to the '+2 equipment' of the original Baldur's Gate game. I mean, just look at at the weapons and armor of the original game. I mean, that +2 Longsword with +1 cold damage that you got from Greywolf was literally an 'Epic Weapon' in the original Baldur's Gate. Then lets not forget that if you got your hands on those Frostbrand and Defender scimitars, you were holding the best of the best.

You could also think that your own level and item enchantments are basically half of what they are mechanically, but I think it is easier to just imagine that Elminster is a level 60 character, with enchanted robes that have +8 AC or something along those lines. This makes the 'heavy weight' characters of the setting heavy weight. Duke Eltan for example would be a level 40 fighter, and just imagine what he could do with those additional epic bonus feats.

[Sun Wukong]

As for

The conundrum IS that our toons are Level 30 mechanically powerful Demi-gods, but those Characters are also repeatedly humbled by RP and mechanics scripted to make them subject to Flaming Fist officers, as example

With the previously posted in mind, the level of Flaming Fist mercenaries is also doubled including the officers, and officers rarely appear without their 'men-at-arms' to command. Now, the game engine has its limitations, it cannot handle large scale combat, or even remotely intellectual actions. The game engine is at its best when you got two guys pummeling at each other - and that is the extend of combat.

In game of PnP that level 30 Frenzied Berserker has those 7 attacks per round, but once he is done with them, it is the enemy's chance to throw nets, release arrows, and grapple. No matter how strong the Frenzied Berserker is, if you have 10+ men sitting on top of every limb and joint, he is not going to move anywhere.

[Steve]

With all that imagination I would need, Simian, I might as well go imagine an entirely different Server, different game and different mechanics, not to forget to mention different experience.



Simply put: the mechanics get everyone caught up in "the power" of our Characters, yet, we are still without good relation nor good relative structure to truly RP our Character's power play/positions.

There has yet to even be an official ruling on the 1/2 your Toon's Level interpretation, only an assumption to it. THAT would at least help in conceptualizing the mechanics into RP possibilities.

But separate from the above, and what the OP for me was about, is the responsibility we all have to not devalue the Lore of how Magic fits in the Realms. If you treat Magic like taking money out of an ATM, then that is how you trivialize it, with some concept of ease and reliability like a machine. It's not, or at least, not SUPPOSED to be this way, nor are 1,000 snowflakes of sword coast specialness supposed to be all operating near each other at one time!

If we Players and our Characters are supposedly limited in our "place" in the Realms, and no matter how many Liches and Dracoliches we slay we're forever "less" than Elminster in both uniqueness and mechanical power, then let's hear that stated from on High, once and for all.

[Hoihe]

I would much prefer if we've treated power levels the following:

Either say that level 20 is max. This gives access to all spells sans epic spells, and then we can handwave epic spells as rituals. Rituals are OP and are capable of feats normal spells cannot. Most powerful of rituals are elven High Magic and those that sacrifice life (or portion of life).

We could also double the power level of the world, so that level 30s don't stand out that much. I.e: Random commoner with 4 HP now has 8 HP. DCs are altered with the NPCs levels being doubled in mind (so no doubling DCs as that'd be plain ridiculous. Instead, adjust DCs as to what skill levels those NPCs can achieve.)

Honestly, it's not magic that needs to be put in stone. It's skill rolls, prices and travel. Especially prices. Adjust it for the server inflation and whatnot and then declare it. At the moment, my character with her 30k gold, per source books, could practically do whatever she wants. And Karond? Karond, by source books, could buy out the entire Flaming Fist and have spare left over. DM balance this by changing prices on the fly, but inconsistency is the ultimate bane of immersion.

[samb123]

It's easy to say our characters are not Elminster in power, but mechanically, they are! And BGTSCC had a "rule" of Play your Character Sheet. So it is understandable that people play their lvl 30s as Demi-God like powerful, because they are, slaying dracoliches and boring old normal lichs on a weekly basis for farts and laughs and loots. Lol.

Mechanically possible is actually less important than whether it's feasible RP to do so. /shrug

If we all roleplay as if we're basically as powerful as Elminster (sidenote: Elminster in 3rd Edition had a total level of 35; see Epic Level Handbook, pp. 291–292)... If we did that, then there wouldn't be anything left of Faerun.
The evil mages and the good mages and the druids, etc., etc., etc. would all be so busy fighting that Faerun would be obliterated. For verisimilitude's sake, we have to accept, at least in our minds, that our characters have some limitations.

@Hoihe:
As for changing things such that the power levels are altered, either on the player or in the world (monsters, etc.)? Not going to change a whole lot. Short of reducing everyone's level mechanically to 20 (which will never happen), mechanics won't cause folks to recognize their character's feasible limitations. So it up to us, the players, to roleplay things in such a way that we're cognizant of this.

[Reckeo]

I haven't taken the time to read through the ENTIRE thread, but I think I can make a point and a suggestion that can resolve some of the biggest complaints about magic.

It's not so much a problem that magic exists, I think there is a problem with the amount of times we see 'buffed shiney' people running around fully buffed like it 'aint no thang'.

Rather than changing resting times across the server or making a huge change regarding the spell availability or levels, there is one thing I'd like to bring to everyone's attention, and its the notion of TIME.

I'm not saying the ratio of RL time to server time, but that which takes place during ZONE TRANSITION and TRAVEL. The time it takes a player to transition from a cave/dungeon entrance, or an interior/exterior is ZERO. Meaning, you didn't lose any buff time.

However, the transition from say, North of Beregost to Beregost (a sign says something along the lines of....60 miles)....is also....ZERO.

So, a PC can buff up, and run around without wasting spells from buffs, and travel 60 miles without losing a single second of their 10 minute buff. This makes sense if you're transitioning inside a dungeon from level to level or room to room, it makes NO SENSE if you're in an outside zone.

Travelling 60 miles would take time and cost player's buffs. This means you'd see less people buffing up and running around zone to zone, unless they were invested into buffing themselves for that particular area, lest that magical spell burn itself out. This would mean, you'd be seeing more use of teleportation magic, and less use of buffed players running from zone to zone with their horde of summons unless they did it specifically for that zone, since they will all expire before they travel to the next.

IE, this would essentially solve the problem of seeing magic everywhere, all the time, unless a caster has a reason to use it in that area.

[Steve]

24/7 buffing is a result of a host of reasons. None good.

It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

But if there is an OOC understanding that needs to be addressed and published, in that our Levels are 1/2 of what the Sheet says, in terms of RP relations to Lore or NPC levels, then sure, I can do that, and I'm happy to RP that...I just don't see that being a certain Rule.

Now, even if my Lvl 30 is tops Level 15 in terms of NPCs of Faerun, then...how the puck should I understand solo killing a Dracolich, or, having Epic Spells that only Elminster also has?!? Let's get some relational help here, please.

Yet still, as Reckeo points out and I said also earlier in another way, Magic is used as the most convenience it can offer through the mechanics of NWN2, but really, TOTALLY AGAINST the Setting of the Forgotten Realms. Sorry, but that is true.

And yes, we see like 99% snowflake PCs around us, and very little 3D NPCs in which may be Commoners and/or have anything to offer our PCs (cause yes, the liches and dracoliches DO have more to offer us, everytime!!! ). So to the general, day-to-day game and RP, magic is the most pervasive thing, and we game for more of it, and more power.

Still still still...we can RP that Magic has Meaning beyond the day-to-day mechanics. We/You/I can all do this! And it honestly makes it more fun, when magic/magic items/magic beings have WEIGHT in our RP World, and are not "trinkets" and "shinines" and constanteverywherealwaysonubiquitous!!

[samb123]

It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

So... what's stopping you from doing that? You? Other people?

It's not the mechanics, I can you that.

Hint: Everything you're bringing up as an issue is capable of being handled through RP.

[Khazrak]

It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

YES. THIS. It won't happen, but I actually find lower level adventures more compelling, because danger and the risk of permanent death is far more omnipresent.

Still still still...we can RP that Magic has Meaning beyond the day-to-day mechanics. We/You/I can all do this! And it honestly makes it more fun, when magic/magic items/magic beings have WEIGHT in our RP World, and are not "trinkets" and "shinines" and constanteverywherealwaysonubiquitous!!

The issue here is getting the message to others in-game, and working within the environment we're in. Let me give an example:

I recently rolled up a retired adventurer coming back out of retirement, a halfling paladin named Amabel. Right joy to play, she is. Anyway, I figured that I'd be able to get away with her being relatively ignorant of magic in the world. Should be fine, right?

Well... It's harder than it sounds. At first it was fine, but she brought up the issue of not being able to contact her daughter (who traveled up to Icewind Dale to be an adventurer) for a month. So, someone suggested quite casually that Sending spells were available, and that she could get a medallion that sent them in Beregost. As you can imagine, this brought my character to tears, and she went off to get one as soon as she could.

Now, you've got a character with this magical amulet who can send messages whenever because she's got enough money to buy amulets because that's what this the game allows me to do. This middle-aged halfling woman just got a magical cell phone in the Forgotten Realms. And she knows she can get these now, so when someone else has a similar predicament as hers, it only makes sense for her to suggest that person get the same medallion, right? Because it works so well! And it's worth the gold!

Moreover, the gold numbers that people throw around in dialogue absolutely throw the setting out of whack. Amabel found a Dusty Tome at one point. It's worth roughly a hundred thousand coins?! Holy hot diggity dog damn, that's a lot of money! And people can just throw that cash at books!

Similar situations have continuously occurred, making it harder to play my halfling as ignorant of magic and the world at large, because magic and vast wealth and what-have-you keep getting shoved in her face. And it's not the fault of the players, not entirely! Nor is it exactly the fault of the developers or the DMs. It's the nature of a Persistent World with an economy that has no ceiling due to the massacre of monsters bringing infinite wealth, and it's also caused by the high level cap that has made the server what it is. I love BGTSCC, but these particular qualities are inherent to the server, and I do not think they can be removed.

I'm still enjoying my halfling. However, I play understanding that the more I try to enforce some Forgotten Realms realism on my character, the more my character will stand out as being the oddball in the bunch because everyone else is simply playing the server as it's presented, and treating magic and such as passe because it is when everyone is level 20+. It's one of those situations that you kind of have to adapt to.

[Reckeo]

For the longest time I stayed away from casters on the whole because I preferred melee classes/hybrids first and foremost. Now that I'm dipping a bit more into the caster classes (still far from wiz/gish/or straight cleric), I tend to not use my magic very often in public areas.

However, I would think that lower level spells would still be common. For example on my bard, I took Damp/Dry, and in certain RP situations (for example in an event, we travelled for days and went to a Town, where we were invited for dinner to a Lord's Keep in one hour).

I read the spell description, and used Damp/Dry as a way to quickly prepare myself for the Lord's dinner before changing from my armor into more formal garb. Situational, but as I also RP a travelling Character, spells like this would make sense, and would be useful for situations like that.

I do my best to keep my magic low-key, and disable spells often once in a safe zone. Certain zones would benefit from preventing magic being cast altogether (maybe preventing spells other than teleport etc at FAI or in city areas).

It does require self awareness and RP conscientiousness. Raising player RP awareness of this might be beneficial if we can cultivate the server culture to engage in this level of RPing, but it does little to prevent the weekend warriors that log in from other servers to explore this server quickly and see what content it offers.

Ran into a dwarf that zerged past me in dungeons. When I asked him anything, he just ran by me and I got an ooc message that said "sorry, not an rper". Immersion killing? yeah, but not day ruining. We'll get those.

[Khazrak]

It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

So... what's stopping you from doing that? You? Other people?

It's not the mechanics, I can you that.

Get a DM that wants to run events specifically for low level characters without the interference of high levels and we'll talk!

[samb123]

It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

So... what's stopping you from doing that? You? Other people?

It's not the mechanics, I can you that.

Get a DM that wants to run events specifically for low level characters without the interference of high levels and we'll talk!

Why do you need a DM? All of us are capable of doing things on this server without a DM holding our hands.

[Reckeo]

True, it's not that difficult to ignore the zerger running to the Auction NPC at FAI as they push and move your toon while they run in with their pets and total buffs. /nosarcasm, I'm being honest. Some other players might not find it so easy to ignore that though.

It's when there are two or more its difficult for me. In RP terms when I encounter a character with total buffs, in a dungeon or the wilderness, its a pause for caution. Hard to RP that or say that its in 'my RP control' when stuff like that is going on.

Here or there, easy to ignore. Two or more (and these players stick together), harder to ignore and not in my control.

As for low level dungeons, I'm just so past it. Low level stuff with the 'coming of age' adventurer gets so old. I get so tired of playing the wet behind the ears adventurer, it just reminds me of every pop cultural re-make that's been taking place for the past two decades, it is banal beyond belief.

If I go that route, I aim for the rogue-like or rogue-lite where perma-death is a thing to make it exciting. Otherwise, it's just.....ugh. A bit off topic though.

[Steve]

It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

So... what's stopping you from doing that? You? Other people?

I've done this 37 times. That number is not an exaggeration nor unrealistic. Level 5 lasts about 2 minutes on this high-XP-per-kill-infinite-monsters-thus-infinite-XP Server/game.

The problem is that on my way to a Level 5 CR area, I have about a 86.4% chance to run into a Level 22+ Character, who is GUARANTEED to offer, after hearing of my destination, a slew of EPIC BUFFS that will make my Lvl 5 toon in a CR 5/6/7/8 Area a literal demigod of wrecking ball strength.

Terrible, right?!?

But that is the thing: just hand off EPIC MAGIC at a whim, because its a Rest and Repeat world where Players are not really making enough effort to be more Lore-centric about Magic.

Well, not ALL Players, but seriously...if we want a little bit more "realism" to the Realm, in terms of Lore, it really isn't all that "elite RP" or difficult to do so.

Paradigms are meant to be changed!!!!