Game Mechanics Discrimination

[adobongmanok]

The rules aren't complicated nor long, this is getting old. "Don't remain on the side where you don't belong", so complicated, so long !

I still fail to see how the script hurts Underdark players when they were not supposed to take root on the surface anyway. Either it doesn't impact you or you broke the rule often (perhaps I should have logged the killing and looting done on the other side to let DMs dish out justice instead of this ? I'm sure it would have gone smoothly !). In the end it is a pretty mild script enforcement of a server rule... and a pretty sad thing that needed to be done because DMs cannot be present all the time to catch people who are doing stupid things (I can't believe this point has to be repeated ad nauseam).

Also players do not report such things much either, hence a script who is always there (and dumb sometimes, yes, small price to pay).

If you want new areas for the Underdark I suggest contacting Cubicle, opening your toolset and rolling up your sleeves.

I'm quite sure that it has already been brought up many times, the people from UD is asking to expand the neutral zone beyond upperdark to Soubarish area. We are asking for new area yes, but due to the limitation of server space, this is a more realistic approach. Not to mention Soubar already houses other races. That's why we're rolling up our sleeves and trying to start a petition that is about to be ignored.

[Valefort]

I didn't think that has to be cleared, your suggestion is in direct contradiction with the rule, this is not realistic at all

About server space the limitation is there but interior areas do not take much space, exterior ones are the culprits, but since UD areas are interior ones you can add a couple of those.

[Tekill]

Yes, there are D-Bags on the surface and in UD, as well UD. They don't know they are D-Bags and often they will think everyone else are the D-Bags. So there is often no settling matters on your own with them. Hence the DM ban hammer.

Seems like there are some D-Bags with drow characters pissing off UD'ers and Surfacers alike these days. If they are breaking the rules then report them.
There is a silver lining to this, as it has created some realistic tension between the surface and the UD. So no sign of FAI tea parties in the near future. woo.

I think the one argument provided to sort of justify any Underdark discrimination especially regarding the surfacers encroaching on underdark turf, is related to the population ratio of surfacers to underdarkers.
You might have 1-4 underdark players on the server compared 50 or more surface players. Regardless of size of the UD or surface, it is a finite space and I think based on the actvie UD population they are doing pretty good for itself.

This issue seems to consistently circle back to low UD population. I think that is the big issue with the UD. I am not sure if there are ways to increase the pop down there.

Maybe reorganize the factions. I would like to see more Lolthites down there. You have all these separate governing bodies, these schools of magic with zero, one or two players in each school. Its utterly fractured- they are all mages. Put them on the same team.
There are other ways it could be organized a little better or overhauled.

New content added, or replacing existing content? -the plate quest talks about mindflayers but it found in the basalisk area. It could use a bit of housekeeping and maybe some re-imagining.

Allow players more freedom to impact the setting?
Send out some feelers as to what the players want with the UD.

For example, making slavery legal, we are basically doing it already, just calling it 'servants' instead. Let it BE more evil instead of APPEARING evil.

Another idea, since the UD is pretty much segregated from the rest of the server, would be to give it a different rating from PG13...make it a AA (adult accompaniment area).
Only adults allowed in the UD. And if you go to the surface you have to play it by PG13 rules.
But please no Erotic RP....last thing we need it the UD to become some sort of illicit sex den!

[Tekill]

I didn't think that has to be cleared, your suggestion is in direct contradiction with the rule, this is not realistic at all

A contradiction to the rules. Are you implying that these rules can never be changed?
What about allowing denizens of the Upperdark access to some of the surface then. Seems only fair to me. Since the surface are allowed in the Upperdark. Why would that not be realistic?

[niapet]

Isn't there a way to put server transitions and string multiple servers together?

[Deathgrowl]

What about allowing denizens of the Upperdark access to some of the surface then. Seems only fair to me. Since the surface are allowed in the Upperdark. Why would that not be realistic?

This isn't how it works.

Look, this is how:
The surface is for the denizens of the surface.
The upperdark is open to denizens of both the surface and the underdark
The underdark is for the denizens of the underdark.

In terms of these rules, there are no "denizens of the upperdark". There are surfacers and underdarkers. No upperdarkers.

The door is locked in both ways. Surfacers shouldn't be in the underdark without a good RP reason and can't grind/loot there. Underdarkers shouldn't be on the surface without a good RP reason and can't grind/loot there. Both surfacers and underdarkers can freely be in, loot and grind in the upperdark.

I can't think of any more ways of explaining this now, but it is really, really simple.

(EDIT: A disclaimer: I don't personally agree with the fundamental design of the UD/Surface relations here, but given that they are this way, this is the best way of dealing with it.

By fundamental design, I mean the layout before any rules are considered.)

[metaquad4]

What about allowing denizens of the Upperdark access to some of the surface then. Seems only fair to me. Since the surface are allowed in the Upperdark. Why would that not be realistic?

This isn't how it works.

Look, this is how:
The surface is for the denizens of the surface.
The upperdark is open to denizens of both the surface and the underdark
The underdark is for the denizens of the underdark.

In terms of these rules, there are no "denizens of the upperdark". There are surfacers and underdarkers. No upperdarkers.

The door is locked in both ways. Surfacers shouldn't be in the underdark without a good RP reason and can't grind/loot there. Underdarkers shouldn't be on the surface without a good RP reason and can't grind/loot there. Both surfacers and underdarkers can freely be in, loot and grind in the upperdark.

I can't think of any more ways of explaining this now, but it is really, really simple.

(EDIT: A disclaimer: I don't personally agree with the fundamental design of the UD/Surface relations here, but given that they are this way, this is the best way of dealing with it.

By fundamental design, I mean the layout before any rules are considered.)

Some upperdark areas are (apperantly intentionally) locked to surfacers, like Ruins of Oghram. So, some of the upperdark is underdark only, but not other areas?

[Sun Wukong]

B is male, and after 'whar' B was toggled hostile and beaten up in a matter of few rounds.

Cool, you've run into an idiot. Congrats, it happens.

Now why are you posting it here instead of bringing it up to DM team?

DMs make people that misbehave disappear. Not forum discussions.

As I said earlier, I do not care about PvP as long as I do not lose the experience points. Heck, I only intentionally partake in PvP when I think that my own character will lose. Like for example against a fully and recently buffed up wizard...

As for not reporting it to DMs... A part of me feels that the other guy was tricked into doing it.

Come to the underdark for the setting, and leave it behind because the above happens everyday!

And why are you posting disinformation, exactly? This doesn't happen every day. I had UD characters.

Zero PVP encounters so far.

Please refer to your earlier: 'Congrats, it happens.' The drow and underdark have always had more than their fair share of PvP related issues. This has not changed over the years. This was no more than the most recent incident for me, and posted because it makes the denial of this issue slightly harder.

[niapet]

What about allowing denizens of the Upperdark access to some of the surface then. Seems only fair to me. Since the surface are allowed in the Upperdark. Why would that not be realistic?

This isn't how it works.

Look, this is how:
The surface is for the denizens of the surface.
The upperdark is open to denizens of both the surface and the underdark
The underdark is for the denizens of the underdark.

In terms of these rules, there are no "denizens of the upperdark". There are surfacers and underdarkers. No upperdarkers.

The door is locked in both ways. Surfacers shouldn't be in the underdark without a good RP reason and can't grind/loot there. Underdarkers shouldn't be on the surface without a good RP reason and can't grind/loot there. Both surfacers and underdarkers can freely be in, loot and grind in the upperdark.

I can't think of any more ways of explaining this now, but it is really, really simple.

(EDIT: A disclaimer: I don't personally agree with the fundamental design of the UD/Surface relations here, but given that they are this way, this is the best way of dealing with it.

By fundamental design, I mean the layout before any rules are considered.)

I don't understand this strict dichotomy between RP and leveling.. for me its all RP. I RP, with my groups, as I am leveling... So a trip to the UD to kill drow, and other evil beings, would be very IC and also could serve as "grinding"... Why do we need to separate grinding from RP?

[chad878262]

I don't understand this strict dichotomy between RP and leveling.. for me its all RP. I RP, with my groups, as I am leveling... So a trip to the UD to kill drow, and other evil beings, would be very IC and also could serve as "grinding"... Why do we need to separate grinding from RP?

Because history taught the powers that be players could not be trusted to 'play nice'. Some can not separate RP from griefing (on one side, the other or both) and thus rules were implemented to help address this.

In general we ourselves are the very reason we can't have nice things. It would be wonderful if everyone had the same ideas about what constitutes "good RP" (hint: my way is right!). However, since some think it's more important to 'win' and some think PvP should never occur at all and still others think everything should be handled via turn based RP combat while others just want to use the rules to show the rules are flawed, etc. etc. etc. there need to be strict rulings and, where possible mechanical support of those rules.

[Planehopper]

Just as a general reminder, please do not post specific issues with players or their RP on the forums. These need to be PM'd to the DMs for review/action. Posting them directly on the forums just invites flaming, arguments, and all sorts of things that stink up the place.

The post will be locked if necessary, but I really don't want to do that.

[Tekill]

Yeah, what chad said.
Especially for me, the ones overly focused on the rules while in game. Rule breaking, exploiting rules, trying to prove rules wrong, or the ridged rule followers that will break awesome RP to point out the most minor rule infraction.....since my days of PnP - the rule lawyers always drive me nuts!
Side note -If a troll knows that the stupid thing he/she is doing to annoy you is working then he/she will keep doing it.
Point being try not let it bother you. I am pretty good at dealing with rules lawyers at this point.
But we are a bit off topic on this thread.

This was a focus on how the new game mechanic and other bias, is repressing UD game play.

Valefort has explained it a point I must have been missing from staff or folk related to staff.

"Don't remain on the side where you don't belong"

maybe I will add to this little blurb to that quote..."unless you have an RP reason only".

So it would go more like this: "Don't remain on the side where you don't belong" "unless you have an RP reason only".

I just put words in your mouth Valefort...but I am always right so its no problem.

So again for the 5th time, I didn't think it was an issue in the first place. It seems we are all repeating ourselves a bit.
BUT. you know what! -Hey, we got amaze-balls coders that can create cool stuff for this game. Lets let them do this kind of pointless coding too once in awhile. It must be challenging for them, you know- lets let them have their fun too. It is not a huge thing, nobody is grinding on the other side anyways. Let the coders practice this kind of thing to, we should not ruin their fun, and in the end we can still work around it.

What do you say NeInginity, lets let the coders have this one. And maybe they will help us some when we try to reevaluate the Underdark now that they let the surfacers win access to the Upperdark.

It was a fairly big change. And the Underdark is getting even less love now because there is a new kid in town. The Snirfneblin are now slowly taking control as the master race and the Underdark is left...well, in the dark.

Something needs to be done for Sshamath to help them adjust to this change. Like my previous post....or whatever else folk can think of.

[mrm3ntalist]

This was the best change ever to help ud because:
- a race with rich and unique rp is played where it is supposed to, the ud
- it prevents removing this uniqueness by playing the Drow like any other race on the surface
- rp interactions between ud/surface still exist. You just can’t go on a grind fest, and promotes the “rp reason” to be on the other side
- the rule actually brings the ud to life by having more ud characters actually playing in the ud

That’s how BG was setup. A rule 100% efficient, 100% fair.

[Tekill]

I'm just finished doing my taxes this year and have been drinking whiskey. So I think this had put me in the perfect frame of mind for me to go on ahead and read between the lines a bit to mrm3ntalist post.

- a race with rich and unique rp is played where it is supposed to, the ud

Meaning: Go back where to where you belong!

- it prevents removing this uniqueness by playing the Drow like any other race on the surface

Meaning: If you want to be special snowflakes then do in away from the rest of us!

- rp interactions between ud/surface still exist. You just can’t go on a grind fest, and promotes the “rp reason” to be on the other side

Meaning: None of you have ever really ever 'grind fested' before where you didnt belong but since we are so freakishly amazing, we are even creating solutions to problems that don't actually exist.

- the rule actually brings the ud to life by having more ud characters actually playing in the ud

Meaning: Yeah in case you didn't hear me the first time, Go back to where you belong!!!

I am totally kidding- (no I am not)! I think this post had run it's course its going to be locked until you all smarten up and give all your gold and epic loots to the drow!
Again, I am totally not kidding, not!
Okay seriously though let me create a Make the Underdark Great Again Post and you all can help me think of ways to make the kid brother Upperdark, flourish along with older wiser big sister, The Underdark.
Oh but keep talking here if you still have something to say about the new mechanic. Seriously, I dare you!

[niapet]

This was the best change ever to help ud because:
- a race with rich and unique rp is played where it is supposed to, the ud
- it prevents removing this uniqueness by playing the Drow like any other race on the surface
- rp interactions between ud/surface still exist. You just can’t go on a grind fest, and promotes the “rp reason” to be on the other side
- the rule actually brings the ud to life by having more ud characters actually playing in the ud

That’s how BG was setup. A rule 100% efficient, 100% fair.

IDK this all makes a lot of sense. Still sad that I cant go into the lair of the beast to risk the most for the most reward. Would be cool to treasure hunt in the UD with the constant risk of death. But there is no reason to at all. Ill never adventure in the UD because there is just no reason to. Maybe that's rule working as intended though.