Game Mechanics Discrimination

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

You talk about lore consistency, but it is some kind of absurd that ilithids, ogres and werewolves can freely roam Soubar, while drow are KoS race there. As I (and others) suggested, expand the neutral zone to northern surface territories, simple as that. You can even keep the KoS rules for drow, but expand the neutral zone!

Also think about such races as tieflings and (especially) full orcs. Why should they suffer from those ridicolous restricions? Orcs are already treated like animals and semi-kos race in most places of the server, why should they suffer from restrictions created for drow?

[mrm3ntalist]

You talk about lore consistency, but it is some kind of absurd that ilithids, ogres and werewolves can freely roam Soubar, while drow are KoS race there.

About consistency, Ilithids, ogres and werewolves are not being played by players

As I (and others) suggested, expand the neutral zone to northern surface territories, simple as that. You can even keep the KoS rules for drow, but expand the neutral zone!

It might be simple for you, but obviously it is not so simple.

Also think about such races as tieflings and (especially) full orcs. Why should they suffer from those ridicolous restricions? Orcs are already treated like animals and semi-kos race in most places of the server, why should they suffer from restrictions created for drow?

How do they suffer??? They can choose to play where they prefer... You can play a surface full orc/tiefling or a UD one

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Also think about such races as tieflings and (especially) full orcs. Why should they suffer from those ridicolous restricions? Orcs are already treated like animals and semi-kos race in most places of the server, why should they suffer from restrictions created for drow?

How do they suffer??? They can choose to play where they prefer... You can play a surface full orc/tiefling or a UD one

It can be true for tieflings sometimes, although I think they must recieve crossrealm token at the creation, but what about orcs? Imagine an surface orc, he will be roaming northern territories either way due to RP reasons and won't be able to RP with significant part of the surface community. And if it is an UD orc, he won't have access to XP/loot at Uruk Lurra and its surrounding territories, which is weird as well.

[mrm3ntalist]

It can be true for tieflings sometimes, although I think they must recieve crossrealm token at the creation, but what about orcs? Imagine an surface orc, he will be roaming northern territories either way due to RP reasons and won't be able to RP with significant part of the surface community. And if it is an UD orc, he won't have access to XP/loot at Uruk Lurra and its surrounding territories, which is weird as well.

Not all orcs ( especially UD ones ) need to have access to Uruk Lurra. The same way that not all dwarves need to have access to KH or all elves to have access to DA/EDE. You pick and choose.

[Velaris]

Wow, lots of reading here I'm catching up on.

I have a few questions for clarification, if anyone would be able to chime in. From what I understand:

1. Surface towns like Soubar, Baldurs Gate etc are no loot no combat xp areas for underdark races, and drow and other UD races being there consent to being KOS right? No pvp out required? Or is it just drow?

2. Upperdark areas and towns like Rockrun, are considered neutral territory. combat xp and loot good for all races, pvp out but no one is KOS, surface or underdark, is that right?

3. So Underdark areas and towns/outposts, are no combat xp or loot for surface races, and surfacers consent to being KOS by being there as well?

If all these three are true, then it seems a fair system. Underdark races should be rare and KOS on the surface, and any surface races in a drow city should expect to be murdered in short order.

[Tekill]

Good questions Valaris- Let me add a fourth.

4. Are Svirfneblin the race of the Upperdark, going to be considered a KOS race?

[NegInfinity]

The drow and underdark have always had more than their fair share of PvP related issues. This

Please report this to DM team so (they can take care of it) instead of complaining about it on the forums. I had similar or worse incidents on the surface, even though I very rarely pvp. The issue most likely not even UD specific.

As for not reporting it to DMs...

Nothing results from doing nothing about it. Breaches of PVP rules should be reported, otherwise they will continue to happen. If you don't want to report them, then you accept them by default.

That’s how BG was setup. A rule 100% efficient, 100% fair.

While I kinda sorta see where you're supposed to be coming from it is neither efficient nor fair.

It is a very flawed "compromise" people decided to install. Don't claim"100%", it is "20%" at best. The policy is very flawed and should be probably replaced something else at first opportunity.

You try to rely too much on scripts and rules rather than implementing means for community to self-regulate in lore-appropriate fashion. Eventually this habit will be this community's undoing.

I mentioned previously that Flaming Fist now hands out rewards for dead drow, nobody seemed to notice.

Good questions Valaris- Let me add a fourth.

4. Are Svirfneblin the race of the Upperdark, going to be considered a KOS race?

If we are to follow letter of the law, then yes.

Death to all svirfs, half-drow and imaskari.

[Sun Wukong]

After some consideration, I think the biggest flaw of the Underdark on this server is the lack of other drow to slay. There are some CR1~ drow to slay in the Darkwoods of Sshamath, and some CR5~ drow between the Hilltop Ruins and Gibberling cave on the surface. I feel that these areas do not exactly faciliate the drow on drow hostility that the setting itself is known for based on Forgotten Realms novels and D&D source books proper.

On this server you have a very limited player base in the underdark. A player base that is divided into various different factions that have one or two active members at the best of times, which means that any faction based conflict within Sshamath will easily become an interpersonal conflict, which can spiral into an actual out of character conflict.

The city of Sshamath is at peace without any enemies for the Drow to slay, the deep gnomes of Rockrun are very much a neutral faction and also at peace. Which means actual conflict in the setting itself is limited to interacting with other players, which again can easily spiral into some kind of interpersonal out of character conflict.

I think this is the primary reason why the underdark players wish to escape to the surface, where the grass is literally greener, where on the first glance is so much more to do. From forests to desert canyons to rocky ravines to open plains and frozen mountain tops. The surface is filled with a wide range of terrains and different NPC monsters to slay, and there is enough players to have guilds and factions with an actual presence. This does not mean that things on surface do not spiral into some interpersonal out of character conflicts, but a larger player base does make it easier to keep things in character.



So how to 'fix' underdark? Well, I think the underdark would benefit from a hostile NPC drow city. The city itself does not need to be there as a grinding area, but you could have forces of that other city to fight against in the cold and dark tunnels of underdark. Players would have a shared enemy to work against, and DMs would have some easy underdark event to throw at the players. A simple raiding group from the 'enemy NPC city' could strike on the surface, upperdark, and thus player characters could strike against this 'enemy NPC city' in kind. But the biggest difference and boon of it would be that it would let drow kill other drow... It is hard to be a drow, if you do not kill other drow...


Edit: anyhow, done with this thread. Sorry, ain't going read another post here.

[Invoker]

Some upperdark areas are (apperantly intentionally) locked to surfacers, like Ruins of Oghram. So, some of the upperdark is underdark only, but not other areas?

The Ruins of Oghrann is one of the very, VERY few epic areas for the Underdark. It has been in the Underdark since I started playing down there, in 2011, and probably far earlier than that.

It's a Middledark area closer to Sschindylryn than any other landmark on the way to Sshamath (but there is no open tunnel to Sschindylryn, since the city is only accessible through its portals: the huge underground cave it's built in offers no other viable access).

It should never have been an Upperdark area in the first place.

[scriver]

Why is the Upperdark considered separate from the Underdark by people here to begin with? It's just a name for the shallower reaches of the Underdark. It should be seen and count as part of the Underdark.

Frankly I still don't see why surfacers get to go into these regions of the Underdark and grind xp and loot if underdarkers cannot do the same in the unlawful Surface areas.

[Invoker]

Why is the Upperdark considered separate from the Underdark by people here to begin with? It's just a name for the shallower reaches of the Underdark. It should be seen and count as part of the Underdark.

Frankly I still don't see why surfacers get to go into these regions of the Underdark and grind xp and loot if underdarkers cannot do the same in the unlawful Surface areas.

Well, technically, Upperdark is "just" deadly (as in: far deadlier than almost anything you can find on the surface, and incredibly more alien, which multiplies the mortality risk).

Middledark (where most Drow cities are located) is a suicide trip that rarely ever comes to fruition (usually, without a guide and an awful lot of might you die during the trip through the Upperdark, or get lost and die during said trip) and Lowerdark...well, nevermind.

I can imagine making the Upperdark what it currently is, mainly to avoid Middledark becoming just that (which is far, far more ridiculous. Exponentially more so).

[Steve]

C’mon Invoker!! People don’t want to RP Lore and that shit. They use want OOC access for easy powerups! Duh!!!

[aaron22]

just some points i want to put out because unlike most people, this actually does affect my characters and my RP.

i play one of several evil surface orcs. i travel to the UD on occasion for several reasons. all i would deem "worthy" RP.

now because the UD is sparse and and inconsistent, i usually have to wait. and waiting can take days not minutes or hours. days to meet the right player(s). days to get the encounter i am trying to get. now all i can do is wait. cannot do anything productive. just sit there. well i am not a just sit there kind of guy, so i wont be doing any of that anymore. now it will be OOC. that is not as good as more organic encounters. this also goes the other way. they want to "run into me" at serpent hills. nope. not anymore.

this rule has an effect that is negative to me and players i work with. fact. i choose to play surface orc, so im not crying. this is a tool that hinders my RP. i am just one player, but i encounter many others. butterfly effect.

this mechanic is not enhancing the RP of a RP server. it is stifling it.

[chad878262]

this mechanic is not enhancing the RP of a RP server. it is stifling it.

While a fair statement from the fact that you can't go where you want to go and loot/grind while awaiting a meeting and thus OOC'ly either play another PC while waiting or don't actually go to the Underdark until someone is there to RP with for whatever purpose the other side of it is also stifling to RP. That is to say, seeing Underdark races on the surface as a daily occurrence. It goes both ways, insofar as Lore and RP are concerned. It is one thing for your PC to make an occasional sojourn to the Underdark, but if there are also a dozen humans doing so that would be a bit...off, right? By the same token, running in to a drow on the surface every time you log in would be contrary to the way some players would expect the setting to look and feel.

Thus, what really stifles RP is the inability of everyone to respect the setting. The mechanical implementation supporting the rules that have been in place for years helps to protect the setting in the sense that there is zero reason outside of RP to be on the other side. So if you OOC decide not to be down there until the RP is actually supposed to take place that is actually enforcing that you are down there for a specific RP purpose, which is a good thing IMO.

[aaron22]

well i guess i see several issues regarding the separation of UD and surface in respect to how our server handles it.

Lore: our characters are level 30(ish) they would be able to tromps around anywhere and everywhere they want. a level 30 human fighter could live in the middle menzo for its whole life. drizzt was about level 18. a few interpretations of his Character sheet, but the most reliable one i have seen has him at level 18 at the end.. put him closer to 10-14 when left menzo. its a long story so i will digress this. anyway. the environment is not a detriment to any level 30 coming and going where they please. lore. even a 30 crafter style build would be far more powerful the environment in lore.

1/2 chearcter level Lore: the world is far stronger than the ruleset. therefor if you take everything and double it, passage from the surface to UpD would be nearly impossible. death would be severe and fast. exploring would be nearly impossible and only small and infrequent raids would be the only way to make the trip. bad timing and the whole thing would be countered and the avenue closed.

bgtscc: somewhere in between and it's weird. it neither makes sense and creates a phenomenon where players can do things that admin may not want or intend. and the admin can expect a totally reasonable expectation out of the players but the world created doesnt support it. its a dichotomy but being explained and defined as a similarity.

in the end. i dont care. the rule is whatever. not the worst thing about the server and certainly not a reason to stop playing here. but i might need to retain a lawyer.