Magic in the Realms

[Incarnate]

Besides, magic requires genius level intellect or inborn gift. Not everyone has either of those.

And you can't do everything with magic. Read Magic of Faerûn.

That would be quite incorrect, and the rules actually reflects this.
According to the rules: Casting ability needs to be 10+spell level in order to learn and cast spells from the specific spell level.

10-11 is considered average level.
14 is just under genius level.
15 is genius level.
20+ is in the beginning levels of godlike.

So obviously, the higher the spell level, the less likely the beings who can learn and wield it will become. Unfortunately, because of how the game is, many such beings will an almost common sight - which is a really poor reflection of how it actually is in Forgotten Realms. Some areas have more emphasis on magic, like for instance Thay, and some areas have a really low emphasis on magic, and others it somewhere in between.

Personally I do think its important that spells retain that level of importance and it isn't as trivial as its made out to be, because every arcane & divine spellcaster, eventually run out of their daily power and need to rest, where normally it would take about 8 hours of FULL UNDISTURBED rest, then for any spellcaster who prepares spells it would take more time when also factoring in the individual would need memorize and/or pray for spells, which easily could take more than an hour or more to complete. Another thing that isn't even factored in, but both arcane & divine spells require spell components and some more specific material components that can very difficult to obtain, or exceedingly difficult. This means that the spellcasters wouldn't just hurl spells around unless it was actually deemed important enough to solve it through magic, firstly because magic is a finite resource thats physically and mentally taxing to cast, secondly there could be costs involved that wasn't negligible and the cost most certainly would increase with spell level. So, spellcasters wouldn't just go about and throw spells around just for the sake of casting spells, so when spells are cast in FR, its generally because the purpose matters enough for it to be solved through magic, because quite often there would be mundane solutions to it. Even spontaneous casters such as Sorcerers and Favored souls, still need to use spell components, so this would be true for them aswell. There is a reason why many mages/wizards/clerics offers their magical services for gold, firstly because they can make a good living that way, but certainly also because they need to when they offer their magical services because otherwise they will run a deficit business, because most spells have an actual cost. The only ones that would care less about this would be warlocks and other invocation-based caster, as their power comes from powerful entities..... well at least that is how its presented in the lore, and the PnP rules are made to support this. The whole reason why the much use of magic would break immersion and lore to a degree, simply is due to the fact that mechanically it in this game supports quantity over quality, because you can keep resting even though the character wouldn't need the rest other than to regain spells and hitpoints...oh yea, and in the 3.5 and previous editions, one wouldn't regain all hit points with one rest, it would actually only be 1+con mod per day of full rest. However, the need for spells is made much higher due to several facts, that monsters are generally tougher, hit harder, have more hitpoints, are more dangerous and they don't reward that much xp compared to their PnP counterparts. Which basically just means, more spells and magical items are needed to overcome them.

...hence one of the reasons I suggested that arcane & divine spells should have a gp cost in relation to it spell level, because it would make spellcasters not just go about and cast spells for the sake of casting or being benevolent, they would for the most part only cast them when the spells are truly needed. Of course this would introduce some other issues on their own, but the result would be that we would see spells being used when it really mattered. It would give all the more reasons for spellcasters to actully charge for their services, which by the way isn't really a possibility to do, because if you want to charge for it, one will just find a more benevolent spellcaster who won't. If spells actually did had a cost associated with it here on the server, then those who're are offering the buffs, wards, etc. would just be that much more benevolent. Personally, I think that spells being so readily available offsets a very delicate balance, which isn't just in the terms of encounters.

Let me fix an error.

Spells take AT MOST 1 hour to prepare. This means your entire list of memorized spells. It can however take shorter, if you do not prepare as many spells as your spell slots allow, but you need at least 15 minutes to get into the right mindset.

Also, it needn't be 8 hours of sleep. As long as one doesnn't move around or exert oneself, it's acceptable as rest.

http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/arcane.shtml

That depends very much on what edition of rules you go by, if by 3.5 then you're correct, but since we're in the 1st edition timeline, it would be more correct to use 1st or 2nd edition rules to determine the time needed for this. By second edition it would be - Eight hours rest followed by 10 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time.

1st edition - Eight hours rest followed by 15 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time.

[Reckeo]

GP cost for spells makes no sense. It's a highly out dated mechanic. Also, since spells can be cast by a numerous amount of casters that do not have spells 'memorized', such as a sorcerer, favored soul, or bard, these spells are innate and thus not a matter of 'memorization', or 'prayer'. This is a conversation limited only to traditional learned wizard classes and clerics, and would not be easily implemented as a solution to the OP's 'tip'.

[Hoihe]

1st edition - Eight hours rest followed by 15 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time.

We have always used 3.5E mechanical and "fundamental" lore, with 1E historical lore. Exception is where historical lore caused a fundamental change (time of troubles).

Otherwise say good bye to multi classing.

[Incarnate]

GP cost for spells makes no sense. It's a highly out dated mechanic. Also, since spells can be cast by a numerous amount of casters that do not have spells 'memorized', such as a sorcerer, favored soul, or bard, these spells are innate and thus not a matter of 'memorization', or 'prayer'. This is a conversation limited only to traditional learned wizard classes and clerics, and would not be easily implemented as a solution to the OP's 'tip'.

No it isn't, there are still rules for it, they're just not enforced to allow for more casual play.
As for the amount of time needed for a spontenous caster is minimal. Clerics pray for spells, just as a wizard prepares spells, mechanically the same. But as stated in the following post, the amount of time it takes to memorize/pray for spells depends a lot on the edition of rules used to determine it.

Spontanous casters would be affected by the gold cost just like any other traditional spellcasters, they just cast the spell innately, where spells cast innately that has a cost still has this cost, so any spell components or material would still be needed.

1st edition - Eight hours rest followed by 15 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time.

We have always used 3.5E mechanical and "fundamental" lore, with 1E historical lore. Exception is where historical lore caused a fundamental change (time of troubles).

Otherwise say good bye to multi classing.

That is then where the lore and mechanics are in conflict with each other. Because one thing is how it works mechanically in 3.5, another how it historically works in 1st, and the how it actually works within the game - which are all very different.

About multiclassing, does exist in 1st edition, but is generally more restrictive and race dependent. There were also dual-classing.

[Reckeo]

This is based around a notion of there being regeant components. The gold cost only represents the cost of the regeants without actually requiring players to go and purchase said items (or collect them in the wild or wherever they can). A bit like some notions of witch craft, in order to conjure an animal you need an animal feather, a pinch of sand, and a rat's tail, or something ridiculous (and usually you are limited to being able to summon a creature that naturally exists in that area). Also, in order to cast the spell, if there is a 'somatic' component, it means that the casters hands must be free (unless an additional feat is taken), or order to represent the physical flailing of the arms, the dance around the corpse, waving your hands and holding up ash and blowing it at the enemy in order for it to form into a fireball, etc etc. This is hindered by various armors that inhibit movement, or holding a staff, etc etc.

Also, certain criteria must be met if I remember correctly. There has to be a full moon, certain spells will not work unless it is raining, druid spells cannot be cast indoors, its actually pretty extensive.

So, how exactly would this be mechanically represented by NPC casters? They would have all the necessary regeants, or gold cost, and meet the criteria for all the spells so that it makes sense?

How far do you really want to go with all of this? I feel like there is a lot of cherry picking happening with this.

This is not pen and paper, simply put. Games that require regeants to cast spells suck. Go play Ultima Online and see for yourself.

[Incarnate]

This is based around a notion of there being regeant components. The gold cost only represents the cost of the regeants without actually requiring players to go and purchase said items. A bit like some notions of witch craft, in order to conjure an animal you need an animal feather, a pinch of sand, and a rat's tail, or something ridiculous (and usually you are limited to being able to summon a creature that naturally exists in that area). Also, in order to cast the spell, if there is a 'somatic' component, it means that the casters hands must be free (unless an additional feat is taken), or order to represent the physical flailing of the arms, the dance around the corpse, waving your hands and holding up ash and blowing it at the enemy in order for it to form into a fireball, etc etc. This is hindered by various armors that inhibit movement, or holding a staff, etc etc.

The somatic component part is usually reflected with arcane spell failure, which is a statistic every armor has. The summoning part depends a lot on how its described for the setting, which I believe for Forgotten Realms is that the creature summoned, is more like a copy of the creature, but of course depends on the actual spell. The spell component and special materials should be reflected through a simplied gp system - so in general the spell cost would be based on its spell level and a multiplier (which is basically an easy way to tweak the end result - if it should be low or high cost), and for those spells that have very rare material components, should of course cost more, which should be added on top of the spells normal cost.

For this example I'm using this formula - Spell level x modifer x amount of gold coins + misc cost.
Summon Monster I: 1 x 1 x 5 + 0 (is negligible) = 5 gps.
Animate Dead: 4 x 1 x 5 + 25 gp per Hit Die of undead animated.
- lets say the amount of HD is 10, so the formula would read: 4x1x5+(25x10) = 20 + 250 = 270 gps would be the total cost.
Raise Dead: 5 x 1 x 5 + 5000 = 25 + 5000 = 5025 gps.
Shapechange: 9 x 1 x 5 + 1500 = 45 + 1500 = 1545 gps total.

Obvously, if the multiplier is changed then final result would change, also the above numbers are subject to change depending on what sources the spells are based on and what the DM's enforce their costs to be.

Also, certain criteria must be met if I remember correctly. There has to be a full moon, certain spells will not work unless it is raining, druid spells cannot be cast indoors, its actually pretty extensive.

Yes, some spells has a criteria, and that makes sense, like for instance, it wouldn't make much sense that you could cast a call lightning spell indoors, and even if so then the spell effect should only affect outside. Of course spells that require full moon, would be a bit trickier, but essentially could be made to work, or have it changed to better fit, since it would be more difficult to implement mechanically.

So, how exactly would this be mechanically represented by NPC casters? They would have all the necessary regeants, or gold cost, and meet the criteria for all the spells so that it makes sense?

That would make reasonable sense that they are able to cover any necessary expenses in this regard, here I'm assuming you're talking about npc's that offer some kind of service, like a cleric who's offering to heal, remove curses or diseases. With regards to npc combatants I'd say of course they should be assumed to have this, because anything this else could seriously affect their CR.

How far do you really want to go with all of this? I feel like there is a lot of cherry picking happening with this.

No cherry picking. What makes you think there is cherry picking involved?

This is not pen and paper, simply put. Games that require regeants to cast spells suck. Go play Ultima Online and see for yourself.

[Reckeo]

In response to the OP's post, and after reading 'Magic in the Realms', I guess one idea would be to make Wizard, or other caster classes be through application only after review by a DM. This would be the same for multi-classing as well, much like how some of the other classes work.

Or perhaps to level past level 10 in a class, you have to then submit application to proceed past that point to represent progressing past apprenticeship. This could be a fun avenue to encourage a caster college, Candlekeep, anything really.

This used to be the case, in 2nd edition AD&D, for a druid to progress past the level of 13 or something of that, they had to go to a circle and become an arch-druid, and there was only so many Arch-Druids permitted, if more than one at all.

This was represented well in Baldur's Gate 2 in order to become arch-druid you had to past the test/trials. In Icewind Dale, there was one wizard in the town of Kuldahar, and he was on the edge of town and treated with suspicion and curiosity. He lived in a tower, sold magical items, and had a goblin familiar as a butler.

Hard to ret-con this though.

[Reckeo]

No cherry picking. What makes you think there is cherry picking involved?

Don't be offended by this.

I totally get what you're stating with your suggestion, but I think this just over complicates things. I meant cherry picking because, the spells that require a full moon without clouds etc, or to be within 10 miles of the ocean, or for their to be wind etc etc, is simply too much work and too difficult to implement.

For purposes of what the OP suggests, I think my suggestions of changing zone transitions to represent travel would diminish the spells casters cast unless they are specifically in that zone to accomplish something that required use of their powers (naturally, this would be reflected though distance and travel in outdoor zones, not interiors).

The implementation of components ONLY as cost of GP, without implementing other necessary conditions such as moonlight, being outdoors etc, seems a poor restriction that is only going to diminish the system. I'm seeking proposals to enrich it without a simple 'hit their pocket book' solution.

When I spoke about NPC's, it would have to make sense then, that casters would drop more Gold on death, as to represent the 'components' they had on their corpses necessary to cast the spells. It's just too complicated and doesn't really enrich the casting experience, or limitations of magic. Also, how then would a random Gnoll shaman be so able to cast such powerful magical spells? Because components? Where did they acquire the knowledge? Is there an army of arch-mage gnolls running around threatening all of known civilization?

Making spells debuff and expire on long zone transition travel outdoors, and implementing DM approval past a caster level of 10 for certain classes would enrich RP through apprenticeships, as well as casters using their spell power only in the area's deemed necessary. These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

[Incarnate]

In response to the OP's post, and after reading 'Magic in the Realms', I guess one idea would be to make Wizard, or other caster classes be through application only after review by a DM. This would be the same for multi-classing as well, much like how some of the other classes work.

Or perhaps to level past level 10 in a class, you have to then submit application to proceed past that point to represent progressing past apprenticeship. This could be a fun avenue to encourage a caster college, Candlekeep, anything really.

This used to be the case, in 2nd edition AD&D, for a druid to progress past the level of 13 or something of that, they had to go to a circle and become an arch-druid, and there was only so many Arch-Druids permitted, if more than one at all.

This was represented well in Baldur's Gate 2 in order to become arch-druid you had to past the test/trials. In Icewind Dale, there was one wizard in the town of Kuldahar, and he was on the edge of town and treated with suspicion and curiosity. He lived in a tower, sold magical items, and had a goblin familiar as a butler.

Hard to ret-con this though.

Apprentices for mages and wizards usally end at level 5 where they take their trials - if any.
Also, becoming an arch-druid and becoming a fully fledged wizard are two very different things, I would say arch-druid and archmage would be comparable in that regard.
But I think that perhaps there should be more emphasis on representing magic more correctly, both through rp and in the game.

[Reckeo]

Apprentices for mages and wizards usally end at level 5 where they take their trials - if any.
Also, becoming an arch-druid and becoming a fully fledged wizard are two very different things, I would say arch-druid and archmage would be comparable in that regard.
But I think that perhaps there should be more emphasis on representing magic more correctly, both through rp and in the game.

So in this context then, I would almost argue that anyone could 'dabble' in magic, up to level 5, but then would require RP, and DM approval. This might seem kind of....restrictive, but it would better represent what the OP is suggesting.

Of course, this might cost us some players, so who is to say. I am only responding in the sense that I understand OP is talking about enriching the source material for casting, and in a sense, I like my idea of zone transitions, but not if it's going to stop people from having fun here. It's easy for me to argue since I don't mess around with many casters. But it would be interesting to have DM application/approval past level 5 AND zone transition debuff in exterior travel zones.

Clerics would be different but still have certain restrictions. This might cause too much micro management to be feasible altogether though, I am sure there are many loopholes and problems with my suggestions, I just don't think gold cost for spell casting is the way.

[Incarnate]

These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

Its a more simple approach to it that would become to easier on those who're more inclined to a more casual playstyle.
Having spells have no costs at all that normally would, really breaks immersion in my opinion and it reflects magic in a bad way.

A way around this, would be to have a spell component pouch, that basically has an amount of charges, which basically would consume a charges for each cast respectively.
The cost for replenishing this would of course be something like amount of charges x 5 gps, or similar. These spell components pouches would come with a variety of capacities, that only could be replenished at vendors that sold spell compenents. Along with this consumable that would add charges to it could be made as well, like spell runes.

So lets say someone was out adventuring and suddenly ran out of spell components, tough luck, then he/she would have to go back and get resupplied.

So in this context then, I would almost argue that anyone could 'dabble' in magic, up to level 5, but then would require RP, and DM approval. This might seem kind of....restrictive, but it would better represent what the OP is suggesting.

Clerics would be different but still have certain restrictions. This might cause too much micro management to be feasible altogether though, I am sure there are many loopholes and problems with my suggestions, I just don't think gold cost for spell casting is the way.

Getting to level 5 as wizard is certainly not just dabbling, its the equivalent of a fully fledged wizard/mage. To be dabbling would be the equivalent of level 1, maybe 2.

I think having the application part isn't a bad idea, but it would most certainly become a lot more demanding on the DM's, and in my opinion still wouldn't be enough as it doesn't change the fact that players would have a more trivial and shallow approach to magic. For instance, how often do you see people actually just free of charge offering buffs and wards? Even benevolent spellcasters have expenses when casting spells, and basically means that you can't really make a living as a mage unless you go into enchanting or mercantile business as opposed to one who sells his or her magical services.

[Reckeo]

Also, in terms of RP, a lot of folks would just, forego the longer process of the 'everyday' RP, including sharpening swords, oiling armor, praying for spells, or memorizing spells and going about town and taking strolls through wilderness to collect components for spells.

This is VERY cool to RP, as it lends a sense of immersion. We are also playing in a very dated game engine. The NPC's walk around, and that's about it. In newer games, they go about thier days shopping, walking the streets, yelling comments, smithing weapons, farming, etc etc.

In my concept of magic in a realm, the idea of components is not ALWAYS necessary. However, certain types of magic (blood magic, necromancy etc) would require components, and in my notion, necromancy from a wizard would be just as capable as raising someone from the dead (not just undead) is just as doable as a Cleric casting it, albeit different methods and unseen 'costs'. Ashes for fireballs, healing potions, magic is essentially a form of meta-physical alchemy that takes manifest from ritualistic gestures, ancient words of power, mental focus, discipline, and certain conditions to be met. A good example of this for example is in Divinity Sin, where you can freeze a mud puddle, or use a fireball to dry it up, or cast lightning at it for additional damage. Also, standing in the elements leads certain magic to be more powerful over others.

These games also typically incorporate things like, water skins to create puddles, useable torches and oil skins to create fire, etc etc.

I like the idea of criteria being needed; some sort of wind outdoors to summon a storm or something, etc etc. This is extremely hard to do in an open online multiplayer world because once you start setting mandatory RP restrictions just to enforce source material to be true to a setting, you start potentially diminishing fun factor for casual gamers, and this server considers itself Medium RP, not Hard Core, and this is fine.

Part of what makes a Wizard so unpredictable and met with suspicion AND curiosity, is that no one ever knows what to expects because they see the world differently in how they interact and manipulate it with their learned and practiced powers. Where one sees a cloudy moon, a wizard sees a potential source of energy to launch a lightning bolt at an enemy. Where one sees darkness, a wizard sees a shadow form lunging to pull their enemies unexpectedly to a dragged away doom. Someone sees a toad, a Wizard sees a giant, by flicking a wrist and transforming this creature into a creature capable of swallowing a grown man like a fly. Working within these restrictions, is part of what makes a Wizard useful, unpredictable, and CLEVER. It need not always be the obvious most powerfully mechanical spell. Like casting 'heat metal', on a low level brigands sword so they lose their weapon. Enough to make them rethink not just the robbery, but their entire life.

How do we capture this in game?

One could also argue for a multitude of other things to be represented, but no game will ever be a real replacement for what it accomplished through pen and paper. Too many restrictions can impose blocks for imagination instead of cultivating and promoting 'freeplay'.

We all have our own opinions and ideas about what works, that's why some of us play the way we do, and we often do see independent groups, even on a small server, that team up to create their guilds and rules of RP and what they expect and like to contribute to the game for everyone.

[Reckeo]

These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

Its a more simple approach to it that would become to easier on those who're more inclined to a more casual playstyle.
Having spells have no costs at all that normally would, really breaks immersion in my opinion and it reflects magic in a bad way.

A way around this, would be to have a spell component pouch, that basically has an amount of charges, which basically would consume a charges for each cast respectively.
The cost for replenishing this would of course be something like amount of charges x 5 gps, or similar. These spell components pouches would come with a variety of capacities, that only could be replenished at vendors that sold spell compenents. Along with this consumable that would add charges to it could be made as well, like spell runes.

So lets say someone was out adventuring and suddenly ran out of spell components, tough luck, then he/she would have to go back and get resupplied.

I actually like this idea much better. The idea of a pouch, or something similar, would make for interesting RP. I also wish there were droppable spell books as 'artifacts' or something of the sort that would be highly prized by casters.

Maybe even a seperate pouch for seperate schools of magic. One pouch contains components for evocation spells. Another for conjuration. Each time you cast a spell from the respective school, one of the charges from the respective pouch is used. High level spells require higher charges, though this may be overboard.

Regardless, it would require a bit more attention paid to spells being cast. Not too different from a ranger and their arrows.

Also, not a bad idea to implement a feat a player could take to circumvent components for one particular school of magic, provided that have something like 'spell focus' or something, and maybe at 1 level higher than required. Maybe specialists could circumvent this with their respective schools.

Also, holy symbols.

[Incarnate]

These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

Its a more simple approach to it that would become to easier on those who're more inclined to a more casual playstyle.
Having spells have no costs at all that normally would, really breaks immersion in my opinion and it reflects magic in a bad way.

A way around this, would be to have a spell component pouch, that basically has an amount of charges, which basically would consume a charges for each cast respectively.
The cost for replenishing this would of course be something like amount of charges x 5 gps, or similar. These spell components pouches would come with a variety of capacities, that only could be replenished at vendors that sold spell compenents. Along with this consumable that would add charges to it could be made as well, like spell runes.

So lets say someone was out adventuring and suddenly ran out of spell components, tough luck, then he/she would have to go back and get resupplied.

I actually like this idea much better. The idea of a pouch, or something similar, would make for interesting RP. I also wish there were droppable spell books as 'artifacts' or something of the sort that would be highly prized by casters. Also, holy symbols.

Maybe even a seperate pouch for seperate schools of magic. One pouch contains components for evocation spells. Another for conjuration. Each time you cast a spell from the respective school, one of the charges from the respective pouch is used. High level spells require higher charges, though this may be overboard.

Regardless, it would require a bit more attention paid to spells being cast.

Also, holy symbols.

I agree, having spell component pouches for each school of magic would make a lot of sense. Which also means that if some one were to find a spell pouch, it might actually be worth a lot. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to have various types of places these pouches could be replenished slightly through gathering.

Interchangable spellbooks would also be a very nice feature if possible, as many wizards/mages actually often end up creating many spell books throughout their time as a mage/wizard, and these spell books are known to very often be very valuable.

[Reckeo]

I agree, having spell component pouches for each school of magic would make a lot of sense. Which also means that if some one were to find a spell pouch, it might actually be worth a lot. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to have various types of places these pouches could be replenished slightly through gathering.

Interchangable spellbooks would also be a very nice feature if possible, as many wizards/mages actually often end up creating many spell books throughout their time as a mage/wizard, and these spell books are known to very often be very valuable.

I think if a mere portion of some of our suggestions were properly implemented, we would see a change in the amount of people who play Wizards because 'power' vs play a Wizard because of 'RP'.

I for one would love to see more Wizards who are role played truer to what we have discussed the last page or so, as opposed to 'buff inc' gishes who sprint into FAI like a shimmering jewel and push everyone out of their way.

Wish we could get some feedback on how to make these changes feasible, if they are.