Game Mechanics Discrimination

[Deathgrowl]

I don't understand this strict dichotomy between RP and leveling.. for me its all RP. I RP, with my groups, as I am leveling... So a trip to the UD to kill drow, and other evil beings, would be very IC and also could serve as "grinding"... Why do we need to separate grinding from RP?

Call it a behaviour encouragement (or discouragement). There's less reason to be on the "other side" if you can't do it all there.

[Egg Shen]

I feel like the best the complainers can hope for is getting the surfacers removed from the UpperDark. Is that really what you want? All my fave characters are Drow, and I’d be irritated if being able to verbally (and sometimes physically) assault surfaces was taken away from me. I’m currently working on a “magic immune” concept which ought to really frustrate some weak surfaces mages. Please don’t ruin my fun.

[NegInfinity]

While a fair statement from the fact that you can't go where you want to

XP and items are IC concepts and not OOC ones. They reprsent experience received in battle and battle spoils.

As of now, sniffing a rock in underdark is more enlightening for a denizen of UD that travelling to the other side and killing a surfacer animal.

Which is nonsense.

While I see what you might be trying to do, you've selected the worst and most RP-unfriendly way about it. IC actions should have IC consequences.

You installed an invisible wall instead. That goes against the spirit of what bgtscc used to be.

bgtscc: somewhere in between and it's weird. it neither makes sense and creates a phenomenon where players can do things that admin may not want or intend. and the admin can expect a totally reasonable expectation out of the players but the world created doesnt support it. its a dichotomy but being explained and defined as a similarity..

You can simply decide that this is not Toril, but some twisted mirror world elsewhere, and then it all starts making sense.

[NegInfinity]

I don't understand this strict dichotomy between RP and leveling.. for me its all RP. I RP, with my groups, as I am leveling... So a trip to the UD to kill drow, and other evil beings, would be very IC and also could serve as "grinding"... Why do we need to separate grinding from RP?

Call it a behaviour encouragement (or discouragement). There's less reason to be on the "other side" if you can't do it all there.

That's a wrong kind of discouragement for a supposedly RP server. Rather than installing an invisible script wall, add IC consequences.

[chad878262]

As of now, sniffing a rock in underdark is more enlightening for a denizen of UD that travelling to the other side and killing a surfacer animal.

Which is nonsense.

And yet having dozens of drow (or any other underdark race) roaming about the surface more than the Underdark is even more nonsense. Goes against lore in so many ways, especially for the 1st edition timeline. Prior to the change it was far too common an occurrence.

While I see what you might be trying to do, you've selected the worst and most RP-unfriendly way about it. IC actions should have IC consequences.

You installed an invisible wall instead. That goes against the spirit of what bgtscc used to be.

Not at all, the change has done exactly what was intended to. If you have RP on the other side you are welcome to engage in it and you will still gain RP XP. If your purpose was to travel to the other side to grind or loot, then you are now specifically unable to do so and thus encouraged not to break lore by taking a day trip. Drow (even the vaunted Drizzt) FEAR the Surface and the Sun, they should not be going there on a whim or to 'challenge themselves against new enemies' (which is specifically called out as not an IC reason to be on the other side anyway).

As to IC actions and consequences, we don't all have a personal DM watching over us to ensure consequences occur. There is zero consequences for going to the other side unless you are caught and found out by another player or a DM, which can be avoided in many cases. The simple FACT is players grind/loot where they have been forbidden from doing so for many years. Problem solved. Far too many from both sides traveled between the two daily which is severely lore breaking. Now it only happens when there is an actual RP reason and suddenly it's quite rare, as it should be.

That's a wrong kind of discouragement for a supposedly RP server. Rather than installing an invisible script wall, add IC consequences.

Agree to disagree. More players like the change then those that don't, I wonder why? Probably because it HURTS their RP when they see Drow traipsing about the surface with Paladins holding bake sales and slaying Xvarts 20 minutes apart. Why does it hurt their RP? Well, because they likely built a backstory based at least in some part on the lore of the setting, and Drow are not on the surface in this timeline, nor are Svirfs and Imaskari are completely unknown.

[NegInfinity]

And yet having dozens of drow (or any other underdark race) roaming about the surface more than the Underdark is even more nonsense. Goes against lore in so many ways, especially for the 1st edition timeline. Prior to the change it was far too common an occurrence.

There are ton of other drow still underground, and adventurers has always been crazy. There was a discussion about surfacer drow on the forum as well. Try looking for it.

The area in the server is huge, and represents large swathes of lands - something like 250000 square miles. See Map of Faerun.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feature ... aer%C3%BCn

"dozens of drow" can operate there for centureis without ever being found.

Not at all, the change has done exactly what was intended to.

Then there's a problem with approach taken towards things and the intention was wrong, along with approach taken.

Drow (even the vaunted Drizzt) FEAR the

There are non-drow down there. You seem to forget about it.

As to IC actions and consequences, we don't all have a personal DM

Then you should work on system that FLAG people who travel to the other side too often.

More players like the change then those that don't, I wonder why?

You are not in position to say what "more players" like, and most likely are incorrect.
Majority of players haven't voiced their opinion, since there is no in-game voting on topics.

So, "more players" largely deepnds on which poll you cherry-pick to "support" your argument.
This one: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=64165
Had more players that wanted the restriction gone.

The simple FACT is players grind/loot where they have been forbidden from doing so for many years. Problem solved. Far too many from both sides traveled between the two daily which is severely lore breaking. Now it only happens when there is an actual RP reason and suddenly it's quite rare, as it should be.

For all I know, the rule was quite misguided to begin with and this wasn't a problem.
You could, for example, make drow application-only and that would've been WAY more efficient for maintaining proper beahvior rather than attempts to script-walls.

Probably because it HURTS their RP when they see Drow traipsing about the surface with Paladins holding bake sales and slaying Xvarts 20 minutes apart.

To me it sounds like fiction. I.e. an imaginary scenario created to support your point. Never mind that there are supposed to be several dozen miles between locations (is that paladin selling cakes to xvarts?), I haven't encountered anything like that, and reports of this are quite uncommon. There's also huge amount of forum drama going on, which is largely disconnected from in-game reality. The issue is that decision seems to be often made based on forum drama.

So, you'd need to show me evidence of the problem.

Either way.

For all I know, this idea is just one more attempt to kill the server with artificial restrictions. Seen this happen to other communities before, and you're heading in the same direction.

And in all honesty, I've seen servers handle UD/Surface separation better than BG with less DMs present. So all I know you're doing something wrong.

[NegInfinity]

Either way, I give up.

As they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intention".
If people are hell bent on destroying what's left of the past glory in the name of "greater good", I can't help it.

I might try to enjoy what's left, but... sigh.

[chad878262]

There are ton of other drow still underground, and adventurers has always been crazy. There was a discussion about surfacer drow on the forum as well. Try looking for it.

The area in the server is huge, and represents large swathes of lands - something like 250000 square miles. See Map of Faerun.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feature ... aer%C3%BCn

"dozens of drow" can operate there for centureis without ever being found.

and yet they denizens of the Underdark were often found right outside the Friendly Arm Inn, the road north of beregost, the Xvarts, etc... Sightings were a common occurrence.

Then there's a problem with approach taken towards things and the intention was wrong, along with approach taken.

wrong in your opinion. Your opinion is not fact.

There are non-drow down there. You seem to forget about it.

And yet having dozens of drow (or any other underdark race)

Then you should work on system that FLAG people who travel to the other side too often.

Perhaps an option, but not what was requested. The general approach is to make players avoid unwanted actions as opposed to finding a way to punish them when they do.

You are not in position to say what "more players" like, and most likely are incorrect.
Majority of players haven't voiced their opinion, since there is no in-game voting on topics.

So, "more players" largely deepnds on which poll you cherry-pick to "support" your argument.
This one: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=64165
Had more players that wanted the restriction gone.

Nor are you in a position. Of course the pole you posted has a total of about 27 votes...far less than this one, which has 61 votes. Of course it doesn't represent everyone that plays, but a more significant sample then 27. viewtopic.php?f=443&t=64172

Love how you inject the opinion of 'most likelly incorrect' with no basis to support.

For all I know, the rule was quite misguided to begin with and this wasn't a problem.
You could, for example, make drow application-only and that would've been WAY more efficient for maintaining proper beahvior rather than attempts to script-walls.

Considering prior to the rule I had in game tells from players from the Underdark happily prancing about the surface I'd say it wasn't. It was requested because it was an actual issue, not a perceived issue. I'm not a DM so don't have the full story, nor do you, but those that due have a larger view of what the situation was wanted it, to address an actual issue and that issue has been addressed.

To me it sounds like fiction. I.e. an imaginary scenario created to support your point.

Much like your statements. No basis in fact calling out others for making up stories... *shrug*

I haven't encountered anything like that, and reports of this are quite uncommon.

Really? Even with the change there is a topic for a 'bake sale' of surface cookies in the Underdark. So either you pick and chose what you see in the forums or in game, it is hard to miss. Not to mention reports to DMs aren't privy to the rest of us.

The issue is that decision seems to be often made based on forum drama.

Decisions are made based on the feedback of appropriate staff groups that have insight to what is happening in game.

So, you'd need to show me evidence of the problem.

What would it solve? As you say it'd likely just be called 'cherry picking', but I doubt the DMs or Admins are going to be willing to share specifics around PCs/players breaking the rules just to prove their reasoning.

For all I know, this idea is just one more attempt to kill the server with artificial restrictions.

yes, because our Server Leadership is attempting to make the server go away...that would make sense.

Seen this happen to other communities before, and you're heading in the same direction.

Yes, because the servers that had opened travel between areas such as UD/Surface are abundant...oh wait.

And in all honesty, I've seen servers handle UD/Surface separation better than BG with less DMs present. So all I know you're doing something wrong.

Where are those servers now? We're doing something wrong in your opinion...others opinion is different.

Either way, I give up.

As they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intention".
If people are hell bent on destroying what's left of the past glory in the name of "greater good", I can't help it.

I might try to enjoy what's left, but... sigh.

As you will. Server population still seems to be doing quite well, and recently seems increased in the Underdark. I suppose the RP as well as grinding and looting opportunities are still quite good even with mechanical support of the long standing rules.

[NegInfinity]

because our Server Leadership is attempting to make the server go away...that would make sense.

To err is human.

People get strange ideas or follow misguided ideals, try to apply them and mess things up, all the while thinking they're doing the right thing.

Happens all the time.

Just because somebody thinks they're doing the right thing, doesn't mean they get the result they expect and not make things worse.
"The road to hell is paved to good intentions".

So when speaking of that script wall, I do not feel that the reasoning behind the decision was sound, even if intention was well-meaning. The whole thing smells a lot like tiefling tail debate I had in the past.

Where are those servers now? We're ...

(-_-)

Those servers are running nwn1. They are alive and well, and have more players than BG at all times.

[Flasmix]

Here's the thing. You're both right. Neginfinity has pointed out why having these rules in place could make people leave the server. It already has.

However what nobody here knows, is we had a group of new players who had joined quit the server because Drow were killing them in lowbie areas, following the PvP rules but specifically targeting lowbies. If we have stricter rules in place, perhaps we could have retained those players.

There's no way to make everybody happy, it's the simple truth of the matter and we're just going to have to accept it.

[Nemni]

However what nobody here knows, is we had a group of new players who had joined quit the server because Drow were killing them in lowbie areas, following the PvP rules but specifically targeting lowbies. If we have stricter rules in place, perhaps we could have retained those players.

Where is the connection between pvp abuse and "no loot or xp" rule? How is any drow prevented from doing this today anymore than they were before?

[NegInfinity]

Here's the thing. You're both right. Neginfinity has pointed out why having these rules in place could make people leave the server. It already has.

However what nobody here knows, is we had a group of new players who had joined quit the server because Drow were killing them in lowbie areas, following the PvP rules but specifically targeting lowbies. If we have stricter rules in place, perhaps we could have retained those players.

There's no way to make everybody happy, it's the simple truth of the matter and we're just going to have to accept it.

Well, fair enough, but like Nemni said, the issue here is that script wall does not stop PVP abuse. So the "solution" in question does not address the issue you listed, at all.

The drow in question could continue targeting lowbie players and script wall would not prevent it in any way. Because they need neither loot nor xp, just player kills. So, for those drow nothing changed, but now people who dislike the measure have a reason to leave, and people who left due to pvp issues you listed still have no reason to rerturn. So, where is the improvement?

And one more thing.

Underdark is not just drow.

And so far people has been ONLY mentioning drow.

So, perhaps restrictions should only apply to certain "monster" races (drow among them), and not to everybody.

[Flasmix]

They were grinding on the surface and would PvP people who would attacked them because they had a level 30 hipser 'joining in the battle' once it started.

The no grinding/looting rule has been in place for years upon years. If people did this before, they were breaking the rules. The only reason this has become an issue is because a mechanical safeguard was implemented to prevent people from doing this anymore. Now, if those arguing that such mechanical safeguards should not be in place got their wish, the rules would still exist. Then if a DM caught them looting or grinding, they would not only be force teleported back to the UD but will probably lose a level in the process.

Here's the thing though; I would be more than happy to consider and even advocate lessening the rules if Drow did not get their natural SR while on the surface. There's even a basis in lore for this to happen. The whole reason this ruling was originally put in was because Drow get an unfair advantage in PvP due to their SR and it was deemed best to separate the two. If everybody was willing to have their SR be null and void or halved on surface areas, sure, we can look into getting this changed and slacken the rules.

[Sun Wukong]

However what nobody here knows, is we had a group of new players who had joined quit the server because Drow were killing them in lowbie areas, following the PvP rules but specifically targeting lowbies. If we have stricter rules in place, perhaps we could have retained those players.

Where is the connection between pvp abuse and "no loot or xp" rule? How is any drow prevented from doing this today anymore than they were before?

I said I would not comment on this thread, but there is just a simple answer to that.

It is bit of a distance to reach the low level areas in both surface and underdark. There are a lot of monsters in the way, a lot of chests, and if your goal is to bully low level characters for whatever reason, you could earn quite a bit of gold and experience before you actually reach the low level area. After you are done bullying lowbies for whatever reason, you can just log out, wait for server reset to sell your inventory full of loot.

It is true that the 'no loot or experience points' rule does not prevent someone bent on bullying lowbies from bullying lowbies in surface or underdark - but it does make the journey to low level areas a far less worthwhile one. Not to mention that bit of bad luck can be enough to fugue you.

Sure, a drow could team up and grind xvarts, but they get no experience from it. Hence it is actually better for a drow to grind those troglodytes/basilisks/helmed horrors. This does not prevent a drow from grinding xvarts for some role-playing reason, it just makes it so that you really have to have some kind of role-playing reason to stomach mindless grinding that basically only wastes your time...

[NegInfinity]

They were grinding on the surface and would PvP people who would attacked them because they had a level 30 hipser 'joining in the battle' once it started.

The no grinding/looting rule has been in place for years upon years. If people did this before, they were breaking the rules. The only reason this has become an issue is because a mechanical safeguard was implemented to prevent people from doing this anymore. Now, if those arguing that such mechanical safeguards should not be in place got their wish, the rules would still exist. Then if a DM caught them looting or grinding, they would not only be force teleported back to the UD but will probably lose a level in the process.

Here's the thing though; I would be more than happy to consider and even advocate lessening the rules if Drow did not get their natural SR while on the surface. There's even a basis in lore for this to happen. The whole reason this ruling was originally put in was because Drow get an unnaturally fair advantage in PvP due to their SR and it was deemed best to separate the two. If everybody was willing to have their SR be null and void or halved on surface areas, sure, we can look into getting this changed and slacken the rules.

I see your point.

That is in line with my second half of the previous post, where I said that UD is not just drow, and people keep bringing up only DROW in the discussion.

Basically, if measures only affected specific monster races (drow, tanarukk, duergar, maybe), and not everybody, it would make sense.

Your proposed measure where Drow would lose their spell resistance would make sense as well.

It would also make sense if upon losing PVP they were sent home and would not be able to return to surface for some time.

Any of those measures would be more than appropriate than blanket "you get no xp for no reason".

Thoughts?