Need a more thorough explanation on shield bash.

[sir_blacksoutalot]

Those that get the most from this feat are STR based melee fighters. I absolutely believe that the feats are worth it if you want to use a shield. Shield Focus grants +1 AC to a shield fighter for a non-epic feat, that is a pretty good feat even without Shield Bash.

Dedude, are you sure we get +1 AC? Do you mean +1 AB? Here's what it says on the BG wiki:

Shield Weapon Focus
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency
Use: Automatic.

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using Shields for shield bashing and charge. You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. You must select this feat separately for Light, Heavy and Tower Shields.
This feat can grant additional attacks to the Shield Bash feat.

Now if we got +1 AC and also qualified for a third Shield Bash attack, then I'd probably invest in this feat. But if it's +1 AB, then it's just not very useful and essentially forces us fighter types to invest in a fairly worthless feat. Or is it actually a +1 AC?

[aaron22]

I thought shield specialization added +1 to your shield ac not focus.

[dedude]

Sorry, my mistake, I meant that Shield Specialization adds +1 AC. Shield Weapon Focus adds +1 AB to the shield attack and +1 off-hand attack (with no requirements). Compare that to ITWF which only adds +1 off-hand attack (with a 17 DEX req). Still think the feat is worthless?

[sir_blacksoutalot]

Dedude, would you mind elaborating on how Shield Bash AB works? Like relative to main hand AB, how does it step down going from 1st to 2nd to 3rd attack?

I know that's a complicated question considering all the factors that might come into play, but seems important to this discussion.

[dedude]

Shield Bash AB is calculated in the same way as main hand AB. 2nd attack is at -5 AB, 3rd at -10.

Bob the Basher
BAB=12
STR=22
Heavy Shield +2
Feats: Shield Spec, Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Bash, Shield Weapon Focus, Shield Weapon Spec

1st attack: AB = 12 (BAB) + 6 (STR) + 2 (shield EB) + 1 SWF = 21
2nd attack = 21 - 5 = 16
3rd attack = 21 - 10 = 11

[Rudolph]

Finally, some detailled info on this! Thanks so much, Dedude. This'll help me to adjust Scutumus before the free RCR disappears. Three questions that would help even further:

1) I've read your comments here and the wiki entry you linked, and still wonder about the following passage from the wiki:

The additional attack penalty while Shield Bashing mode is on is: 0 Light, 2 Heavy, 2 Tower. This excludes the default 'to hit' attack penalty for having a tower shield equipped, which adds another 2 to the penalty. The Agile Shield Fighter and Two-Weapon Fighting feats can each negate up 2 from the penalty.

Does this mean that if one uses a Tower Shield and has both Agile Shield Fighter and TWF, there is no penalty anymore to equipping the tower shield?

2) Does Northlander Hewing affect the Shield Bash in any way (with regard to damage, AB penalty, and/or attack reduction)? If yes, how? If not, is it likely to be modified in the future?

3) Does Weapon Finesse affect Shield Bash? I.e. is it or will it be possible to build a useful shield fighter with a sneak build (which is suggested by the TWF/ITWF/GTWF bash line)?

[dedude]

Does this mean that if one uses a Tower Shield and has both Agile Shield Fighter and TWF, there is no penalty anymore to equipping the tower shield?

Only for the Shield Bash AB, you still get -2 AB to your main hand if you equip a tower shield.

And an unrelated question: does Northlander Hewing affect the Shield Bash in any way (with regard to damage, AB penalty, and/or attack reduction)?

No it has no effect on shield bash. We may decide to have it work like the other combat modes and make them mutually exclusive.

[Rudolph]

No it has no effect on shield bash. We may decide to have it work like the other combat modes and make them mutually exclusive.

Hopefully not. That would be quite a nerf, and if the benefits of NH don't apply to the bash, it's hard to see the combo as OP.

Thanks for the quick reply!

[Rudolph]

Another bunch of questions that arises from testing the feats IG last night. Maybe you know the answers. In the forum, it says the following about Shield Slam:

Anyone hit by your shield attack must make a fortitude save of (character level/2)+10+STR bonus or be dazed for 1 round. Creatures immune to critical hits are not affected. This feat will work when using charge. This feat applies -2 AB for a Heavy Shield, -4 AB if using a Tower Shield.

My testing suggested otherwise, alas.
1) The feat does not work with every Shield attack. In fact, it seems to be a selected rather than automated feat and has a longish cooldown timer (2 rounds, judging by what I saw). Is it going to stay like this? (Increasing the Slam chances was my main reason for wanting more shield attacks per round.)
2) None of my shield charges showed any daze effect ever (nor Fort check), so Shield Slam does not seem to work when using Shield Charge. Does it work with regular charge? I have also noticed that Shield Slam seemed to have no effect whatsoever on knocked-down opponents, even though the cooldown timer got triggered when I used it on them. Maybe that's the reason why it doesn't work with Shield Charge... Anyway, it would be good to know the limitations for character planning.

[Theodore01]

the wiki has a better description of shield bash. http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Slam

Having played a STR based rogue/fighter-slammer - i can say it's a powerful feat and works well.
(The cooldown is good as it is.)

It does nothing regarding charge, but you have 2 options disabling an opponent: charging with knockdown and s.slam.

[dedude]

Shield Slam is not changing. It is an activated feat. It is a good feat as-is.

[joleda]

This thread is confusing as fudge.

So, to get a high STR fighter type the Shield Slam and 3 shield attacks per round, I must have all of the following feats?

Shield Specialization
Agile Shield Fighter
Weapon Focus Shield
Weapon Specialization Shield (Fighter level 4 only?)
Shield Bash
Shield Charge
Shield Slam

That's a lot of feats. Or, I can have a high DEX fighter type and take the following feats?

TWF (DEX 15)
ITWF (DEX 17)
GTWF (DEX 19)
Shield Bash
Shield Charge
Shield Slam

That is only 1 less feat, but the high DEX means the Shield Slam isn't nearly as good.

Is this correct? If not, please explain. Thanks!

[Born2BeWild]

From Wiki:
Shield Bash can get up to 3 attacks per round:

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting will give 2 attacks/round
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting will give 3 attacks/round
Agile Shield Fighter + any 1 Shield Weapon (focus or specialization) feat will give 2 attacks/round
Agile Shield Fighter + any 2 Shield Weapon (focus or specialization) feats will give 3 attacks/round

So part about agile shield fighter is wrong now? how it will be after update?