Bear Warrior - add 'Shift Tracker'

[Sun Wukong]

Bear Warriots get Scent, but it is only active when you are in the survival mode. So how about if the PRC would also offer the Swift Tracker feat as a quality of life improvement?

Whenever you enter combat, the 'Survival' mode is turned off, and hence Scent doesn't work anymore. Thus, with Swift Tracker you do not have to turn on Survival Mode with every single mob you encounter.

Thoughts?

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Whops, I had just proposed the same... I don't mind merging threads. I think adding Swift tracker is the least thing that can be done for bear warriors. It is embarassing having scent feat, but being unable to benefit from it due to mechanical restrictions.

[Valefort]

Can't you switch survival mode back on ? It's a mode after all.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Can't you switch survival mode back on ? It's a mode after all.

You need to reactivate it every time your character attacks and deactivate it when you need to run, while you also need to manually click at bear warrior abilities. The lack of hotkeys makes scent nearly useless in pvp, simply because you need a second or more to drag your mouse to the bottom-right corner to activate it/deactivate it, while your opponent needs only 0.1 second or less to press stealth hotkey. I am not even talking about the fact that you are forced to concentrate on annoying mouse movements and clicking at tiny icons, while your opponent doesn't need to care about this fuss, which gives him enormous advantage over you.

p.s. I also tried to move both bars at one place... It is a bad idea. Moving both bars to the corner makes things even more inconvenient, and moving them to the centre blocks the vision and looks ugly.

Please give us Swift tracker feat ^^

[chad878262]

From a lore perspective (which admittedly is the purview of the DMs) I don't feel Swift Tracker should be given to Bear Warriors. It is a Ranger/Wilderness Stalker ability which is not granted to Barbarians or Druids. If your Bear Warrior wants Swift Tracker they need only dip 3 levels of Wilderness Stalker to gain it, though that will also require you to have 1d6 sneak dice to qualify.

From a QC perspective I wouldn't want them to have swift tracker and scent. It completely nullifies stealth vs. detection mechanics alongside bear warriors Roar ability which can have a DC of 36. Don't need to actually detect/attack them since you can cause fear when you know where they are from the minimap. In addition, we already improved Bear Warrior and while it is not the most powerful PRC it is by no means weak. It makes a very good tank and builds with Bear Warrior can solo a fairly good amount of PvE content. Giving Swift Tracker, simply put is not just a quality of life increase, it is a power increase and should not be presented as anything else. The power being no longer being able to have players sneak on you, or even the few PvE enemies that use stealth.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

From a lore perspective (which admittedly is the purview of the DMs) I don't feel Swift Tracker should be given to Bear Warriors. It is a Ranger/Wilderness Stalker ability which is not granted to Barbarians or Druids. If your Bear Warrior wants Swift Tracker they need only dip 3 levels of Wilderness Stalker to gain it, though that will also require you to have 1d6 sneak dice to qualify.

When I rolled Bear warrior I had no idea about the hotkey issue and the custom ability bar, it was a surprise for me. I am still up to giving bear warriors Swift tracker feat though. Maybe you are right about the lore, there might be a compromise. For example, create a feat called Improved Scent or something which will do the same thing as Swift tracker (like Slippery Mind = Indomitable Soul)

From a QC perspective I wouldn't want them to have swift tracker and scent. It completely nullifies stealth vs. detection mechanics alongside bear warriors Roar ability which can have a DC of 36.

It doesn't, sneakers still can deliever their sneak attacks, the difference is that you can target them in stealth, but this is what Scent feat does, right? As for roar, it is a spell-like ability, not an instant action (like Rage), it means that it needs time to cast and can be interrupted (easily, since BW doesn't have concentration as a class skill). It is powerful, but not op.

Don't need to actually detect/attack them since you can cause fear when you know where they are from the minimap.

But roar doesn't break stealth, I tested it. Scent works only against characters who entered stealth after activating survival, not before (you will see them at minimap but won't be able to target).

Giving Swift Tracker, simply put is not just a quality of life increase, it is a power increase and should not be presented as anything else. The power being no longer being able to have players sneak on you, or even the few PvE enemies that use stealth

Scent works only against hostile characters, it means that you still need to invest in Spot/Listen in order to detect those who stalk/eavesdrop you.

This whole thread was not about turning bear warriors into power mongers, but about reducing the ammount of frustrating manual clicks and strain caused at BW players. As for the balance, don't forget that bear warriors can't use consumables and items during the form.
Also, maybe I said it plenty of times, but bear warriors are limited to one hand while their opponents can use both, and this is something more than a human factor. Imagine two people with similar characters, one plays with mouse and keyboard, other one plays only with mouse - who has more chances to win?

[chad878262]

It doesn't, sneakers still can deliever their sneak attacks, the difference is that you can target them in stealth, but this is what Scent feat does, right? As for roar, it is a spell-like ability, not an instant action (like Rage), it means that it needs time to cast and can be interrupted (easily, since BW doesn't have concentration as a class skill). It is powerful, but not op.

Sneaks move at walking speed which is plenty of time to activate roar before they can reach you. Of course there is the possibility that the sneak has camouflage, but then they gave up sneak dice and other abilities/powers to take 13 levels of Ranger or 7 levels of Wilderness Stalker. The Bear Warrior with Scent and Swift Tracker can run so the sneaking character can't keep up and could then activate Roar with adequate timing. However, without swift tracker the bear warrior has to be at walking speed in order to 'see' the sneak on their mini-map.

But roar doesn't break stealth, I tested it. Scent works only against characters who entered stealth after activating survival, not before (you will see them at minimap but won't be able to target).

You only need to see them on the minimap in order to be able to utilize AoE abilities.

Scent works only against hostile characters, it means that you still need to invest in Spot/Listen in order to detect those who stalk/eavesdrop you.

This whole thread was not about turning bear warriors into power mongers, but about reducing the ammount of frustrating manual clicks and strain caused at BW players. As for the balance, don't forget that bear warriors can't use consumables and items during the form.
Also, maybe I said it plenty of times, but bear warriors are limited to one hand while their opponents can use both, and this is something more than a human factor. Imagine two people with similar characters, one plays with mouse and keyboard, other one plays only with mouse - who has more chances to win?

This is a confusing statement. Starts out saying it is not about making Bear Warriors more powerful, but ends with a comment about who has more chances to win... In general, I would say that Bear Warrior already gets some pretty strong stuff...Let's take a look.

AC: 30 + 7 (Natural) + 4 (Armor) +4 (Deflection) +2 (Shield) +4 (Dodge) = 51 + DEX and Feats, of which the Bear Warrior also gets + 2 DEX (+1 more to AC).

Damage is not going to be top end, but it is more than adequate. ~2.5 (Base) + 15 (STR) + 4 (EB) + ~3.5 (Elemental damage) = 25 (more with Fighter Feats, FotF, Northlander Hewing and/or PA/IPA active).

Finally, AB can be really good as well since you are looking at 30 (BAB) + ~15 (40 STR in Dire Bear form) + 4 (EB Claws) = 49 before utilizing PA/IPA/NH/whatever.

So 50+ AC, 49+ AB and at least ~25 damage per hit. You can afford to go IPA to get +6 damage and still have 43 AB or go NH to give up a couple of attacks to gain an extra +15 damage from STR.

Point being, Bear Warrior is as strong as any other melee fighter based on the mix of AC, Attack Bonus and Damage. If anything it is not quite as item dependent. It really doesn't need more benefits. Yes the clickies can be annoying without quick bar use, but even without them, just on auto attack the Bear Warrior is as good as many Fighter builds, which is what it should be comparable to.

[Sun Wukong]

From a QC perspective I wouldn't want them to have swift tracker and scent. It completely nullifies stealth vs. detection mechanics alongside bear warriors Roar ability which can have a DC of 36. Don't need to actually detect/attack them since you can cause fear when you know where they are from the minimap. In addition, we already improved Bear Warrior and while it is not the most powerful PRC it is by no means weak. It makes a very good tank and builds with Bear Warrior can solo a fairly good amount of PvE content. Giving Swift Tracker, simply put is not just a quality of life increase, it is a power increase and should not be presented as anything else. The power being no longer being able to have players sneak on you, or even the few PvE enemies that use stealth.

From a purely 'PvP' perspective. Do you know what absolutely nullifies stealth and detection mechanics? Standing still and letting that Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting sneak come at you. You can build for AC that is not based on 'Dodge AC' or your dexterity modifier, with enough HP to soak up the damage, heal skill maximised, and enough damage output to hit back to leave a dent. Thus you just 'tab' + 'q' and even if the sneak tries to 'wasd' away after their sneak attack flurry, even if they use some macro to do it, at least your first attack flurry will land and force the sneak to run away in order to HiPS. This gives you time to drink potions of lesser restoration and spam those healing kits, which means that you can just outlast the sneak and the meagre supplies they carry with their nonexisting strength modifier.

Bow sneaks are far more dangerous, as it takes more effort to reach them.

Now, I do not know the range of the Bear Warrior Roar, but I assume it is centered at caster and the size of the typical AoE spell efect. The cooldown of the ability is seven and half rounds according to the wiki, while the fear effect lasts for three rounds according to the wiki. Even if the sneak fails its will save, if the fear does not break stealth, it will just prolong the fight until the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting sneak just whittles down the Bear Warrior's HP. There are no healing kits, no potions of Lesser Restoration when polymorphed. Thus what use is the Roar ability in PvP? A chance for you to flee the area maybe? Should Bear Warrior be renamed to Chicken Warrior?




And I would say Swift Tracker is a quality of life improvement. I have a wisdom based ranger and cleric that both make use of Zen Archery and tracking. Well, the ranger makes use of tracking and he sees everything on the map. With the cleric, I have to keep on activating the survival mode... and even with a quickbar hotkey it gets too annoying. There are times that I actually re-discover that my cleric can use tracking...

[Akroma666]

+1

Also, does Northlander Hewing work in Bear form? I thought it was bugged?

[Wildsheep]

I've never played Bear warrior but not being able to use keybinds and then having to click a small button in the lower right corner to toggle survival, then on the other side of the screen to toggle scent and then having to do it again after you attack something once makes me think it would frustrate me after a while.

My advice to Bear Warriors is to get some practice clicking on things by playing OSU!