Solar Channeler

[Valefort]

For clerics the power gain is not huge, that said the requirements can be differentiated.

[Theodore01]

For clerics the power gain is not huge, that said the requirements can be differentiated.

The power gain is huge (compared to 10 lackluster cleric levels), especially as they can get 3 other clerical PRCs on top of it.

It makes a difference, kits work well with classes like monk or paladin which hasn't any Prcs.
However, if a class already has access to lots of spellcasting PRCS, it gains quite some power.

Just look at a Cleric 7 / Sacred Fist 10 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 10 - a powerbuild at its own.
Now one can make a Cleric11(Channeler10)/ Sacred Fist 10 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 6

or a Cleric11(Channeler10)/ Morninglord 10 / Hospitaler9 (full castelevel, many TUs).

[Valefort]

There's a BAB requirement as well so that last thing cannot be done, and such a build won't benefit from shapechanging into a solar. It'll get a damage boost though ! Requirements are not final.

[Akroma666]

So can you extend an auto-extend a spell for Divinate?

[Theodore01]

no

[ARHicks00]

For clerics the power gain is not huge, that said the requirements can be differentiated.

The power gain is huge (compared to 10 lackluster cleric levels), especially as they can get 3 other clerical PRCs on top of it.

It makes a difference, kits work well with classes like monk or paladin which hasn't any Prcs.
However, if a class already has access to lots of spellcasting PRCS, it gains quite some power.

Just look at a Cleric 7 / Sacred Fist 10 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 10 - a powerbuild at its own.
Now one can make a Cleric11(Channeler10)/ Sacred Fist 10 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 6

or a Cleric11(Channeler10)/ Morninglord 10 / Hospitaler9 (full castelevel, many TUs).

What power do clerics get? I mean the only PrC claases that are worth taking are Hospitaler and/or Hierophant. The remaining PrCs for clerics are hot garbage. Clerics only excel at sustainability. A cleric can easily be beaten by a high damage burst build like a paladin or weapon master.

I hate when people exaggerate the power of a cleric.

[Young Werther]

My cleric wins out versus WM due to the built in crit immunity.

[Sun Wukong]

My cleric wins out versus WM due to the built in crit immunity.

Yeah, and my new cleric will actually harm the WM more than it harms me...

[ARHicks00]

My cleric wins out versus WM due to the built in crit immunity.

Yeah, and my new cleric will actually harm the WM more than it harms me...

Even with Critical immune a well built Weapon master can get their saves in the 20ish and 30ish and damage in the 20ish to 40ish.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?287653

[Sun Wukong]

And a DC based cleric can get their spell DCs from 30 to 45... And there are spells that just deal damage.

[ARHicks00]

And a DC based cleric can get their spell DCs from 30 to 45... And there are spells that just deal damage.

I use to do edits to the NWN2 wiki, I am well aware of what caster clerics, druids, and mages can get in DCs. However, a caster cleric cannot be both good at melee and casting at the same time. I play clerics a lot. 30 DC is not a problem for that build to save against as Furiona Bellona got a few universal saving items.

[Sun Wukong]

You did edits for NWN2wiki? So are you one of the guys who kept removing actual tested facts for what basically just amounted to 'your feels'?

The DC range of 30 to 45. It is strange that I must explain how different spell levels and focuses have an effect on the spell DC, not to mention how there are three different types of saves to make. Not to mention all the server specific changes. Thus how is your weapon master going to withstand the 150 or 300 damage Quickened Harm spam from the current Destruction domain cleric? Those UMD consumables can be dispelled by any cleric. What are you going to be when you get blinded by that high DC Word of Faith, spam Whirlwind Attack once per round?

As for melee, cleric has its buffs and boat load of +damage per hit spells. Often it just takes that Divine Power, Favor, and Greater Magic Weapon to turn any randomly generated weapon better than what your Weapon Master can get their hands on, and have higher AB even with base 14-16 strength.


What should I say...

You may play wizards clerics, but you do not know how to use a wizard cleric.

[ARHicks00]

You did edits for NWN2wiki? So are you one of the guys who kept removing actual tested facts for what basically just amounted to 'your feels'?

The DC range of 30 to 45. It is strange that I must explain how different spell levels and focuses have an effect on the spell DC, not to mention how there are three different types of saves to make. Not to mention all the server specific changes. Thus how is your weapon master going to withstand the 150 or 300 damage Quickened Harm spam from the current Destruction domain cleric? Those UMD consumables can be dispelled by any cleric. What are you going to be when you get blinded by that high DC Word of Faith, spam Whirlwind Attack once per round?

As for melee, cleric has its buffs and boat load of +damage per hit spells. Often it just takes that Divine Power, Favor, and Greater Magic Weapon to turn any randomly generated weapon better than what your Weapon Master can get their hands on, and have higher AB even with base 14-16 strength.


What should I say...

You may play wizards clerics, but you do not know how to use a wizard cleric.

1. Thankful, unlike yourself, I have tested and did correct math. My math did not include the practiced spellcaster glitch or any Kaedrin upgrades. The highest DC is 44 unless Mage or Wizard using a tieflng, aasimar, or drow.

2. In the same article, i noted the average spellcaster has a DC in the 30s. I go into detail that the AVERAGE spellcaster DOES not specialize in one school.

3. As you see with that build and DooDooKnight 1. You can easily get saves in the 20s. You can get up to +9 worth if saving equipment and 4/+2 from attributes bonus for 30ish saves. That is not including the 30/+6 spellcraft bouns towards saves. That would put that build saves at mid 30s to late 30s. (37 being the highest) Even if you had 45 DC, I would have to roll a 7 or lower to get the full effect of any spell.

4. I noted in the same article back in the early days of NWN2, the "safe zone" for saves for all builds is 20. If you read the explanation above you will know why.

5. Average Cleric is 20ish or lower strength. Bull's strength gives 4/+2. Divine gives.you +5 to BAB while their total AB output is barely in the 50s. (30+7+5+3+1+1+2 for 49 AB not counting feats) A Battle cleric can get +50 and caster 45ish. A fighter/weapon master build can get 45 AB to 49 AB easy and that is not including buffs or items.

Like I said, people exaggerate about these classes. To put it simple the person with a good weapon master build has high saves and 45 to 49 AB without buffs.

6. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Harm

150 max and 75 fail. 43 DC, but the average cleric is below that. Weapon master swings for 6 hits per? Why would a weapon master use whirlwind attack? What would i do when blinded? Um...resortation potion or scroll? Damaged? Heal myself. I can also knock you down.

[Sun Wukong]

1. Thankful, unlike yourself, I have tested and did cotrect math. My math did not include the practiced spellcaster glitch or Kaedrin upgrades. The highest DC is 44 unless Mage or Wizard using a tieflng, aasimar, or drow.

Build:
Human "Cleric 10/Hospitaler 10/Hierophant 10"

Wisdom:
17 (Starting wisdom)
+ 7 (Ability Increases on level up)
+ 4 (Great Wisdom feats from regular epic feats)
+ 2 (Great Wisdo feat from Hospitaler bonus feats)
+ 4 (Owl's Wisdom spell, or +4 item)
= 34

Evocation Spell DC:
10 (Base)
+ 1 (Spellcasting Prodigy)
+ 12 (Wisdom of 34)
+ 4 (Epic caster level from base caster level of 33)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus)
+ 12 (Implosion)
= 42

You can throw 'Advanced Divine Spell Power' in there, which based on the roll result can easily increase the DC by +1 or +2.

Now, you could also go for following build:
Human Cleric 17/Blackguard 3/Hierophant 10

Wisdom:
17 (Starting wisdom)
+ 7 (Ability Increases on level up)
+ 4 (Great Wisdom feats from regular epic feats)
+ 4 (Owl's Wisdom spell, or +4 item)
= 32

Evocation Spell DC:
10 (Base)
+ 1 (Spellcasting Prodigy)
+ 11 (Wisdom of 32)
+ 4 (Epic caster level from base caster level of 33)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus)
+ 12 (Implosion)
+ 2 (The -2 save penalty from Blackguard Aura)
= 43

And as above, you can throw 'Advanced Divine Spell Power' in there, which based on the roll result can easily increase the DC by +1 or +2.

The above is all based on what you can get on this server.

2. In the same article, i noted the average spellcaster has a DC in the 30s. I go into detail that the AVERAGE spellcaster DOES not specialize in one school.

The average spellcaster on this server goes to the Tips and Tricks subforum, Character Builds subforum in particular, and they ask for build advice. With caster clerics, they will be adviced to focus on either Evocation for the large and varied spell selection, Necromancy for Harm and the Save or Die spells, or Conjuration for summons and Storm of Vengeance. (Maybe Enchantment if they want to go for the Tyranny Domain.) Following the given build advice will result in high DC builds.

As for spellcasters that do not focus on DCs, they tend to be 'gishes' of one breed or another. They do not need spell DCs, because they are buffed up warriors instead of spell-flinging-spellcasters.

Therefore, the approach of an 'AVARAGE spellcaster' is entirely incorrect. What you need to focus on instead is the 'MEDIAN DC based spellcaster' - if you wish to have an accurate Fortitude/Reflex/Will save benchmark to work towards.

3. As you see with that build and DooDooKnight 1. You can easily get saves in the 20s. You can get up to +9 worth if saving equipment and 4/+2 from attributes bonus for 30ish saves. That is not including the 30/+6 spellcraft bouns towards saves. That would put that build saves at mid 30s to late 30s. (37 being the highest) Even if you had 45 DC, I would have to roll a 7 or lower to get the full effect of any spell.

Clerics have access to spell called Energy Drain. It inflicts level drain, which lowers your saves and AB. The build you linked previously does not get +6 spellcraft bonus against spells, it only gets +3 from cross-classed Spellcraft skill. Therefore, before the effect of the Energy Drain is even factored in, a roll of 10 or lower means the cleric's spell does its full effect.

And once again, let us not forget that there are spells where the DC is largely cosmetic. An example would be the previously mentioned Harm spells that deal 150 or 300 damage a cast with Hierophant's Blast Infidel ability. There are spells that have no save, such as the previously mentioned Energy Drain.

4. I noted in the saves article back in the early days the "safe zone" for saves for all melee builds is 20. If you read the explanation above you will know why.

People have made DC builds from day one of this server. Did you know that Favored Soul used to be considered as a horribly weak class on this server? It was largely because it did not make a great DC builds due to the split between charisma for spells and wisdom for DCs. It took some time until people discovered its melee 'gish' potential. Melee gishes rarely if ever throw DC spells.

5. Average Cleric is 20ish or lower strength. Bull's strength gives 4/+2. Divine gives.you +5 to BAB while their total AB output is barely in the 50s. (30+7+5+3+1+1+2 for 49 AB not counting feats) A Battle cleric can get +50 and caster 45ish. A fighter/weapon master build can get 40AB to 49 AB easy And that is not including buffs or items.

DC Cleric AB:
30 (BAB, Divine Power)
+ 5 (Base 14 strength buffed up to 20 with Divine Power)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 1 (Bless Weapon, long duration)
+ 1 (Aid, long duration)
= 45

You get more AB if you want, but the above selection does not hamper your DC based spell book.

The Weapon Master build you linked previously can get undispellable AB of 51 with +4 weapon. It would go down to 45 if the build had IPA to increase your damage output to push through caster DR. I suppose you could use some item to get access to Power Attack at least. I would not even consider it worthy to factor in how Divine Wrath could give your build +3 AB/damage for about 5 rounds~.

Your build cannot score critical hits due to immunity, and it can barely push through the DR, and the saves of it could be far higher.

It is an interesting role-play build, I give you that.

But if a melee build wants to go toe-to-toe against a caster, the most important thing to consider is the non-critical hit damage dealt on hit. That is one of the few things that can actually stop a caster from casting their spells. The Concentration skill check is:
10 + (Damage taken) + (Spell's default spell level).

Like I said, people exaggerate abut these classes. To put it simpme the person with a good weapon master build has high saves and 50ish AB wothout buffs.

Weapon Master is a horrible class, it requires a ton of feats and only provides +1 AB against critical hit immunity. That is not say it doesn't work against PvE on this server... There are a lot of creatures, mobs, and bosses without critical hit immunity.

But PvE is not the same thing as PvP against spellcasters.

[Valefort]

Instead of arguing about PvP power, which will never go anywhere, I suggest you think about the requirements of Solar Channeler and what you would deem fitting, with ofc PvE in mind first and foremost