Some Build Questions from a New Player

[wurdpass]

Hey all, new to the server and having a lot of fun. Now that I've sort of got my bearings I wanted to consult the experts before diving too deep into anything.

1.)

The build I've been running around with so far uses the free feat progression to achieve Bard/Dread Pirate/Tempest/Weapon Master (dwarf waraxe) and run a strength focused self buffer with greater TWF

Because of the feats it might be considered a little power gamey but I also have some skill points to splash on social skills to found out the characters. I figured a Dwarf Bard kind of set himself apart for scarcity anyway.

Given the still steep feat requirements, Im streamlined until level 12 on class requirements, and then beyond that to fill out the build.

Without bonuses and accounting for stuff Ill be getting for free I have basically 6 feats that I can choose from 15 to 30.

I expect I have to take: Blind Fight
I think I should take: Feint
And then I also thought: Imp Crit, Oversized 2WF, Epic Prowess, TW Defense

Question 1: Any recommendations for this character? Do you think itll work? Im estimating low 40s AB (self buffed, no enhancements) but somewhat struggle AC and shmedium saves. I dont want him to be the best warrior in the server but I also want to be able to take part in all the fun stuff you guys do.

Question 2: I dont have any fighting forms (Northland Hewing, etc) because I dont understand them. Is there one that makes sense for this build?

Q3: Is it true Tempest requires Blind Fight feat? It doesnt say so anywhere.

2.)

I know it wouldnt be totally optimal but I had an idea that sounded fun and could be a cool RP:
Phantom, Fist of Forest, Shadow Dancer, Ghostface Killer (shield proficiency)

Q4: Can you dual wield unarmed and a shield bash?

Q4: Will the Phantom and Fist AC bonuses still work with a shield equipped? The internet is really unclear on this.


3.)

Another build in my head was Cleric 10/ Dreadmaster 10/Warpriest 7/Blackguard 3

Q5: Should be CL 27 with Practiced Spell Caster is that sufficient? Can trade Warpriest lvls, which are for the Spec Abilities, for Cleric if not.

Q6: The "fun part" of this build is enemies have -7 modifier against its two fear special abilities and spells. But will I ever actually use that in PvE or by the time Im high level everything is immune?

Q7: Other than Tyranny, what other domain makes sense here?

Q8: Is fear actually just an incredibly annoying ability anyway for PvE because the creeps just run across the map?


And then finally Q9: Are any of these builds so completely overplayed on the server that I just shouldnt bother and find some new RP color to bring to the campfire in the Eastern Farmlands

Well that was a few questions haha! 9 questions about 3 builds. Answer any youd like, and feel free to just shoot me any sorts of PMs im excited to connect with the community here.

[Deathgrowl]

1) It's not exactly a powerbuild, so I wouldn't worry about that perception. If you have minmaxed your stats, some people may view that as a bit cheesy and expect you to RP those stats accordingly. Someone with 8 constitution isn't going to be fine with running and running all day, for instance!

Will it work? Yes. AB is more than fine, you can back up your defenses with a bit of consumables (cheap mirror image and shield scrolls, for instance!). No idea what kind of damage you're doing, but it's probably fine. Be mindful of mobs with DR, though.

2) No idea. I don't particularly like those styles, myself.

3) Blindfight is nice, but there aren't really that many mobs with concealment, and you can get by fine without it. As a bard, you also have access to a few spells and also UMD that helps you get by even so. Pick the Heartfire spell, for instance, to counter concealment.

4a) I honestly have no idea.

4b) (You had two question 4s!) No. I don't think so. Both feats say "when unarmoured". Shield is armour. I suspect you may find some disappointment in this class split...

5) If you learn how to deal with dispels, 27 CL should be more than fine.

6) Not sure if those auras stack? Maybe they do. You'll use the abilities if you find them useful. There are planty of things susceptible to fear effects in epic levels, but you better have the DC to back it up.

7) I'm guessing this is for a meleeing kind of cleric? EDM style? War is a decent domain, giving you weapon focus. Too bad Bane has such a crap favoured weapon. Honestly none of the domains of Bane are really that great for a melee cleric.

8) Depends on what you mean by annoying. As a frequent wizard player, I absolutely love fear effects. Fear is a control effect, not a damage effect. You use it to not get overwhelmed. Say you are facing three mobs and you know you can take on two but three might be a bit rough. So you fear one of them and deal with the two you can deal with while the other one plays headless chicken. Then you can deal with the last one afterwards.

So I guess the answer is yes, they will run around, but how annoying it is depends on how you employ it.

9) The first one rare. I've seen variants of it only. The second one is basically unique, probably because it doesn't work the way you hope it will. And the last one I have no idea about the prevalence of. I honestly don't see many actual clerics at all. Usually people play favoured souls instead (which aren't actually ordained priests!).

That was ten questions! Not nine!

[chad878262]

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack (DP4), Whirlwind Attack(T5), Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting (DP1), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (DP6)

B5->DP6->T5->WM5 (takes you to 21) Assuming your final split will be B8/DP10/T5/WM7, right? Pretty standard, below is how I would probably do the feat selection.

You get 7 feats (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) Should look something like this:

1: Weapon Focus
3: Weapon Finesse
6: TWF (DP1), Dodge
9: Spring Attack (DP4), Mobility
11: ITWF (DP6)
12: Oversized TWF
14: GTWF (Tempest)
15:Combat Expertise
16: Whirlwind Attack (T)
18: Northlander Hewing would be a good pick, but Blindfight is also fine.

I'm not sure I really understand your questions, but going to give it a shot:

Question 1: Any recommendations for this character? Do you think itll work? Im estimating low 40s AB (self buffed, no enhancements) but somewhat struggle AC and shmedium saves. I dont want him to be the best warrior in the server but I also want to be able to take part in all the fun stuff you guys do.

Question 2: I dont have any fighting forms (Northland Hewing, etc) because I dont understand them. Is there one that makes sense for this build?

My suggestion is Northlander Hewing at 18. Reduces your attacks per round, but you lose the attack with the lowest attack bonuses and gain damage. Additionally, max STR as much as possible, including great STR in epics. Would be nice to get closer to ~45 AB if possible. As to AC, your eventual goal is mithral chainmail and 14 DEX (+4 bracers or short duration cat's grace) or 15 DEX (+3 DEX item). You're bard level is low enough you really don't need more than ~10 CHA (+3 item allows you to cast 1 level 3 spell per day). You know 4 level 1 spells, 4 level 2 spells and 3 level 3 spells. I recommend Heroism, Mirror Image, and Bulls STR for your level 2 spells unless you end on odd STR and want to use a belt for +3 STR/CON which is probably better so you can save your level 2 slots for Heroism/MI. Remember your spells are very easy to dispel so counting on them will be detrimental, but when you can use them, they'll help.

Q3: Is it true Tempest requires Blind Fight feat? It doesnt say so anywhere.

Where did you hear this? Tempest does not require blindfight.

I know it wouldnt be totally optimal but I had an idea that sounded fun and could be a cool RP:
Phantom, Fist of Forest, Shadow Dancer, Ghostface Killer (shield proficiency)

Not sure if Fist of the Forest considers a shield as using armor or not. Fairly certain Phantom WIS AC will NOT work with a shield.

Q4: Can you dual wield unarmed and a shield bash?

Not tested so unsure if it would work. I don't know if shield bash relies on having a weapon in the main hand or not.

Q4: Will the Phantom and Fist AC bonuses still work with a shield equipped? The internet is really unclear on this.

As stated above, not sure of FotF, but fairly certain Phantom AC bonus does not work with shield equipped.

Q5: Should be CL 27 with Practiced Spell Caster is that sufficient? Can trade Warpriest lvls, which are for the Spec Abilities, for Cleric if not.

This is a personal decision as to what you consider sufficient. A greater dispel cast by a level 20 (or higher) enemy will have a 15% chance at stripping each of your wards that is subject to dispelling. If you are going for a 'buff and bash' divine gish you can generally assume with ~12 wards up you're likely to lose 2 or 3 of them. Sometimes they will be no big deal and other times you will need to reapply them, but as a melee cleric in general losing a few wards will not suddenly make you vulnerable to getting fugued. Worst case you sanctuary and reapply wards or exit the area.

The "fun part" of this build is enemies have -7 modifier against its two fear special abilities and spells. But will I ever actually use that in PvE or by the time Im high level everything is immune?

I got a buddy that uses a very different build with a fear effect to great benefit in PvE and PvP. Just depends on what you're expecting. Some things will be immune to fear, and most players can make themselves immune, but you'll see some use now and again even in high epics.

Other than Tyranny, what other domain makes sense here?

Law gives Mass Hold Person and Hold Monster...However, since you are going War Priest with lower caster level that won't make much sense (honestly, Dreadmaster is better as a caster cleric). I suppose destruction gives you smite if you want to go for a high-ish CHA Cleric or an EDM cleric. Otherwise War gives +1 AB with a morning star I guess.

Q8: Is fear actually just an incredibly annoying ability anyway for PvE because the creeps just run across the map?

It can be, yes...Doesn't necessarily send them across the map though. Also, when mobbed in a CR above your level it certainly can save your life to handle them in smaller chunks by having several running away.

Q9: Are any of these builds so completely overplayed on the server that I just shouldnt bother and find some new RP color to bring to the campfire in the Eastern Farmlands

Not really. I suppose Bards and Favored Souls get a lot of vitriol for there OP'ness from time to time, but your build isn't the type of bard people sling hate at... Frankly high CL Caster-gishes (divine and arcane) are overly common because magic is just more powerful than not magic. However, I would not say there is any 'overplayed' classes/builds out there. Valefort did a pie chart not too long ago and there wasn't anything that jumped out as OMG that's too many of x class.

have fun.

edit: Ninja'd by DG...

[wurdpass]

Thank you guys very much for the replies.

For the bard build: Basically what Chad said except Im curious why DP 10 and not Bard 12 for more spells and inspirations.


Im a pretty noobish NWN player, is there a way to test the dual wielding shield stuff offline and use cheats or something to level myself?

Finally for the Dreadmaster I was intending to go more caster focused build but got attracted to stacking saving throw debuffs. Would a caster build dip into Thaumaturge? As I havent played a high level caster.in NWN Im not sure I understand the appeal of Hierophant.

[Deathgrowl]

You're only going to really be interested in inspire courage (bonus AB and damage). This progresses at bard 1, 8, 14, 20 and 26. Dread pirate also progresses inspire courage at 3, 7 and 10. This means a bard12/dread pirate6 (which is what I'm assuming you're going for as an alternative?) you get +4 AB and damage from inspire courage, wheras the bard8/dread pirate10 would get +5. Not to mention that Dread Pirate has higher BAB, and you'd probably gain 2 by that as well.

The spells are, if anything, bonuses here. Not something to rely on. Your low CL means you'll be dispelled occasionally and the duration of your spells is relatively short whether you're going bard8 or bard12.

You can test your builds in the JEGs Training Module. Some stuff won't work entirely, as scripts are made for the live server, but you will at least get some feeling of how it works.

For a caster focused build you basically want as high a CL as you can get away with because your spell DCs are partially based on caster level. This is the calculation:

10 + spell level + caster ability modifier (wisdom for cleric) + spellcasting prodigy (if you have it) + spell focus (normal, greater, epic) + epic caster level.

Epic caster level means that at CLs 23, 26, 29, 32, 35 (and so on), you get 1 more point in DC.

That means hierophant is the boss of divine casters, as you can get to 32 CL. One of the best cleric caster builds is aasimar or gray orc cleric12/hospitaler10/hierphant8. This can get a buffed 38 wisdom, spellcasting prodigy, greater focus in one school and 32 CL. That gives you a spell DC in that school as 31 + spell level.

Obviously you don't have to cheese it that hard, but at least it shows what can be done.

[wurdpass]

I see. I guess I thought those L4 spells would be worth it for War Cry (and Great Resistance?) But if they are going to get dispelled anyway I get it.

So the Hierophant 8 is pumping the Spellpower feature? And what, Advanced Divinr Spell Power is the 4th pick?

I guess I see how you could go Doom/Hiero and run those Mass Hold spells.

You guys are very helpful I really appreciate it!

How does the Leadership feat work on the server, since I need it for Doom. Is it something that would make sense for the Pirate character as well?

[Deathgrowl]

So the Hierophant 8 is pumping the Spellpower feature? And what, Advanced Divinr Spell Power is the 4th pick?

Spell Power I, Spell Power II, Blast Infidel and Faith Healing is probably what I'd pick. Not Divine Spell Power. Requires too much charisma to be reliable.

Maybe switch out Faith Healing (which isn't super powerful) with a metamagic feat or something if you have filled out your other feats already and you want another metamagic.

[Tsidkenu]

If you want Advanced Divine Spell Power, you must also pick Master of Energy for the +4 bonus to your turning check.

In fact, 14 base CHA + Eagle's + MoE + Regular Divine Spell Power gives a minimum CHA check of 12 (1+11) which is 0 CL, and any roll of 11+ (45% chance) gives you the maximum CL bonus of +4. You need ADSP to exceed the +4 cap, which would only be useful to a CHA focused turner cleric.

[wurdpass]

Thanks for explainig ADSP. It has a flashy name but I was struggling to see what its focus was. Its for Cha Clerics who wont be pumping Wisdom like a caster focus to be able to still cast some high CL spells, is that right?

I think for my purposes, using the Hierophant feat for a greater spell focus enchantment could work if thats available? Or is that not metamagic.

Also, if someone could fill me in on how Leadership will work?

[wurdpass]

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack (DP4), Whirlwind Attack(T5), Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting (DP1), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (DP6)

B5->DP6->T5->WM5 (takes you to 21) Assuming your final split will be B8/DP10/T5/WM7, right? Pretty standard, below is how I would probably do the feat selection.

You get 7 feats (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) Should look something like this:

1: Weapon Focus
3: Weapon Finesse
6: TWF (DP1), Dodge
9: Spring Attack (DP4), Mobility
11: ITWF (DP6)
12: Oversized TWF
14: GTWF (Tempest)
15:Combat Expertise
16: Whirlwind Attack (T)
18: Northlander Hewing would be a good pick, but Blindfight is also fine.

Hey, quick question regarding this.

I built it in Jeg's and liked it. I think Hewing seems really fun. I think I'm going to get CE first, pushing back Mobility to 12 which is fine because Bard doesn't get 4 BAB until 6 so Dread Pirate doesn't get ITWF until 12 anyway. Can't take Focus at 1 either as it requires a BAB+1. This pushes Oversized to 15 but I think it's fine, I like having the CE option early game as the 3 can make you only get hit on 20s.

I had planned to take Feint since I already needed CE and could get a respectable Bluff with Bard and Dread Pirate. No one really commented on it, and your plan doesn't really leave space if I'm going to take Great Strengths, Epic Prowess (?), or circle back on Blind Fight in epic levels, and use your plan through eighteen.

Question is: Is Feint a good pick up on BG?

Before posting, in my head, I thought it might be more valuable than the Great Strength as the Dex AC hit would better close the distance between my AB and the enemies AC. But I'll admit to not fully understanding every trade off going on in that equation, for example the ~4 dmg you can get from Northlander Hewing+Great Strength.

[Hendrak]

If you go for Feint feat you often need a full investment into it: like SF, Guild Thief reputation, Trade domain reputation, CHA modifier and so on....

And then if you do follow that path you wish to make actually use of it -> you need good SA bonus to do so...

which your build doesnt have. Neither SA, nor feats open, nor good CHA... better drop that idea.