Make Shuriken viable

[Rudolph]

During quite a few years of playing, I have never seen anyone use shuriken. I think this is because for pretty much any conceivable build for this server, they are mechanically inferior to the available alternatives (darts, throwing axes, melee), mainly since they do not benefit much from STR and, by implication, Brutal Throw, EDM, critical hits, etc. Although this restriction (together with the chance of Flurry) makes them distinctive and thus worth keeping, and although they should probably not become everyone's go-to projectile, this is still a huge waste, so I propose changes in EITHER of the following two directions:

1) make the shop shuriken extremely varied and situationally useful - i.e. have highly enchanted ones of all materials and laced with a vast array of strong poisons, perhaps even combinations of poisons. Thus they might at least become a weapon of choice for the most knowledgeable and well-prepared killers. The downside: this is a lot of work to implement.

2) grant the feat Epic Precision whenever shuriken are equipped. This would reflect their history as a close-range sneaker weapon and give ranged builds that rely entirely on sneak damage a chance to reach a slightly higher AB and attack number with them (since they don't need to invest as heavily in Rogue any more). It would also lead to a few new class combinations. At the same time, as far as I can see, this change would still not make them the obvious choice for most ranged sneakers, but only give some an incentive to specialize in them.

[Hendrak]

Some while back there have been new shurikens added to the Thief shop in BG (mask shrine).

They are quite good. And nowadays all ammunition can be stacked to 500 per inventary slot.

Guess that was the biggest problem to play a Thrower/shuriken user.

Monk can use Greater Flurry with Shurikens (+3 Attacks per round), not sure about intuitive attack.

Blazing Aura and Fiery Fist should work with Shuriken too. So you can already do a lot of dmg with them.

[Rudolph]

Some while back there have been new shurikens added to the Thief shop in BG (mask shrine).

Oh, I need to check those out. I doubt they are better than the epic shop darts and throwing axes, though...

Guess that (stackability) was the biggest problem to play a Thrower/shuriken user.

I agree re. throwing weapons in general. But with shuriken compared to the others, there are more problems.

Monk can use Greater Flurry with Shurikens (+3 Attacks per round), not sure about intuitive attack.

Yes, they can. And Zen Archery is the feat to use with WIS (rather than Int. Attack). But that's only 2 more attacks than with Rapid Shot and requires an investment of 11 lvls. The latter means losing BAB, usually to the point of losing another attack or two, and also fewer Sneak Attacks. If SA is the main source of damage, the Flurry from Monk is less of an advantage than it seems (7 attacks are enough for 3 attacks from stealth, any more make little difference and at lower Monk levels there is a painful AB penalty).

Blazing Aura and Fiery Fist should work with Shuriken too. So you can already do a lot of dmg with them.

Fiery Fist shouldn't work for Shuriken acc. to the wiki, but even if it did, I strongly disagree with 'a lot'. 1d6 + 1d10 is 9 non-critting Fire damage on average. And in order to get this, one would need pretty much to give up on Sneak Attack damage - certainly on Epic Precision. I'd like to see how any build with this gets anything even remotely comparable to a dart/axe thrower or bowyer.

[Sun Wukong]

Monk 20/Assassin 10. Wisdom based with Intuitive Attack, Zen Archery, Blazing Aura, and Manyshot.

[Hendrak]

What about Monk 13/ Ranger 17 with 10 hunter kit. WIS based with Zen Archery.

-= Hips Outdoor, fast moving monk speed in sneak, a lot of favored enemies, fiery fist,blazing aura, manyshot and rapid shot and traps from hunter, some twf from ranger (could also use weapon finesse). Fiery Fist and Blazing aura from monk, Greater Flury and Rapid Shit pribably stck, couls also haste. Have to look up the BaB.

EDIT: Sun Wukomg was 4 minutes faster ;D BaB is 26: 6Attacks per round. With greter flury snd rapid shot thats 10 attacks per round. 11 with haste. Also has good saves and evasion.

[Rudolph]

Monk 20/Assassin 10. Wisdom based with Intuitive Attack, Zen Archery, Blazing Aura, and Manyshot

Low Stealth score due to low DEX.

Very low AB even for a HiPS build: ca. 30 with Manyshot!

Attack no.: 5+3 =8 +1 from Haste =9 =3 from Stealth

Low Dmg outside Stealth:
3d2
+4 EB
+1d4 weapon extra
+1d10 Blazing
+1d6 Fiery Fist (does it really work with Shuriken? Did anybody test that?)
__
20 (almost half does not get past Fire DR 10/-)

With Manyshot from Stealth (but uncertain due to low AB)
x2 Manyshot
+10d6 Death Attack
__
40 from Stealth vs. crit. immunes
75 vs. non-crit. immunes (not bad)

All in all, in my book, this is considerably worse than can be done with any other ranged weapon. And I think it's similar with the Ranger.

[Hendrak]

Blazing aura and fiery fist are applied to the character not the weapon. You can switch weapons and still keep the bonus. The fire dmg cant be reduced, even not by energy immunity. The fire dmg can even crit.

[Rudolph]

The fire dmg cant be reduced, even not by energy immunity. The fire dmg can even crit.

Thanks for the info, Hendrak. That's good to know - though still doesn't get shuriken to the level of the rest, I think.

If it is meant to be merely a secondary weapon for Monks, perhaps the downsides are ok. I was just reacting to never seeing it used and always opting away from it in my own builds as too obviously sub-par.

[Sun Wukong]

Monk 20/Assassin 10. Wisdom based with Intuitive Attack, Zen Archery, Blazing Aura, and Manyshot

Low Stealth score due to low DEX.

Manyshot requires 17 dexterity. Slap on a +3 dexterity item and dexterity sits at 20. A typical sneak gets up to 30 dexterity with items and buffs. Thus, your stealth skills are just five points lower than what the typical dexterity based monk/rogue would get.

And yes, every point of stealth counts in PvP, but in PvE this is not the case. Just get stealth based equipment and you are good to go. If a mob is immune to critical hits with large amounts of DR, you can always switch to your fists, and hit that Fiery Fist, Blazing Aura, and etc.

Don't forget that this build can be rather nasty while flanking as well.