Harassment RP

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

There have recently been several reports of players subjecting other players to crude, sexual comments and unwanted, mostly adolescent advances. In each of these cases, the "roleplay" was more trollish in nature than it was character-based.

The big question is, can a low charisma half-orc character still say the following line upon meeting a high charisma character: 'Hi, you look pretty.'

Or does it fall under the category of crude, sexual comments and unwanted, mostly adolescent advances? After all, a low charisma character can be seen as crude, while any comment regarding appearance can be understood to pertain an element related to the realm of sexuality, not to mention that not all role-playing activity with everyone is automatically desired for a multitude of reasons, and finally, the short string of words used as in character communication could be described as an adolescent advance due to the lack of linguistic complexity.

Therefore, is the "role-play" in the given example more trollish than in character based? I have to ask because this sounds like another vague rule that will be enforced solely by the whims of the dungeon masters and that depends on how they happen to personally view any involved player.


By the way, I have no idea what the original thread even contained.

Regarding harrasment, another favorite subject is thinly veiled political agenda. There were cases where political views regarding LGBT veiled as IC, while spreading OOC misinformation about lore.

I have no idea what exactly you are even trying to say here. But then again, I am not a political activist whose world view is grounded on the ridiculous premise that everything is political. But I do find it funny in the least.

I mean, if a male character calls another male character a coward, is the male character just calling the other male character a coward, or is it a thinly veiled excuse for a political agenda in order to support the anti-marxist pro-capitalistic anti-postmodernist concept of what constitutes the acceptable parameters for toxic cis-gendered behaviour?



Calling someone a coward is just calling someone a coward.

For the record, Forgotten Realms was written by a self-proclaimed hippie.

For the record, until recent times Harvey Weinstein was universally recogniced, and applauded feminist.



And those hippies of the 70's would be most likely described as alt-right nazis in today's political climate.

Zero tolerance.

Anyhow, I cannot wait to be perma-banned for having a character say: 'M'lady' - while tipping a fedora towards a random elven character.




But back to a more serious tone.


There is actually a very easy way to avoid a clear majority of the 'crude, sexual comments and unwanted, mostly adolescent advances' and that is to roll a male character. The uglier your character is, the less likely you are to recieve those 'crude, sexual comments and unwanted, mostly adolescent advances' - no one has ever approached my half-orc characters with a single whistle or a wink in all the years I have played here. While, playing an attractive looking, skin revealing character does actually garner far more of those 'crude, sexual comments and unwanted, mostly adolescent advances' - but even in that case those can be negated by dressing up like a sardine can that comes with arms and legs.

Oh, before the server had the now broken Appearance Kit, I did ask Maecius to port an .erf file with custom robe appearance. You would not believe how much I suffered from 'crude, sexual comments and unwanted, mostly adolescent advances' - I actually had to stop playing that character because of it. I just could not stomach the sexual harassment.

This was pretty much how that custom armor looked like:

Hidden: show

#MeToo

Well, I obviously don't deny the importance of fighting sexual harassment, this is a serious issue. But! I agree with Sun Wukong as well, because such things can always go too far. For example, PvP rules are widely abused now, and I am afraid that sexual assault accusations would be abused as well.

[casadechrisso]

I think there's absolutely no reason to be afraid that it goes too far, because everything discussed here is already covered by current rules: PG-13, griefing, etc. I think the main point of this discussion is actually talking about what some of us consider going too far and explaining why, so we can all agree on some basic human decency between players. First and foremost is probably "if you're asked to stop, please do".
As for false accusations, I wouldn't know why that should become an issue. Like in any other griefing situation, you provide proof by screenshot or logfile and let the DMs decide on it.

But what I really don't think helps in any way are suggestions like "just grow a pair" or simply paying them back in kind. Mind you, these situations were already against the server rules, they are OOC and in the situations my characters were in it was players making fun of one single female in front of a crowd of bystanders to get some cheap laughs at her expense, even more embarrassing when your throwback isn't witty enough.

[chad878262]

But what I really don't think helps in any way are suggestions like "just grow a pair" or simply paying them back in kind.

This is a fair statement... While I do tell my son that if someone is bullying you in any way (unless they're a girl) you pop them in the nose as hard as you can, you can't really apply that to an online video game. This may be an unpopular sentiment in this day and age, but simply put I do not agree with how our educational system handles bullies and hear too many stories of the kids who are bullied linked to suicide, school shootings, etc. What do folks expect when the resolution of a bullying situation is to make the bullied kid shake hands with their tormentor? Bullies go after 'easy prey' so giving them a nice solid cross, even if it means getting in trouble in the short term, will pay dividends later.

HOWEVER, this is a video game and you can't exactly reach through the screen and give someone a bit of chin music (if you could though....) However, the one constant you can be sure of here is that everyone wants to be logged in (or they'd be spending their precious time elsewhere). Thus, the best deterrent to any negative situation of harassment is to remove the time in game from the transgressor. Like any rule screenshots are most likely going to be required to back up any claim so it's unlikely their will be witch hunts. End of the day, giving them a written verbal ribbing or pvp'ing them is likely to get yourself in trouble so the best option really is just to screen shot and send to the DM's/Admins.

[Arn]

I think a simple rule of thumb on this is if you are asked by another player to stop, then do so.

+1

But what I really don't think helps in any way are suggestions like "just grow a pair"

+1

It's easy to tell people to grow a pair, grow a thicker skin, or otherwise say that everyone is responsible for their own reactions. Actually, to a large extent I agree that people are generally responsible for how they respond to upsetting things.

But I often get the feeling that the people who tell others to grow a thicker skin are simply excusing their own inconsiderate behavior. In my view, it's a two-way street. If you want someone else to be responsible for how they react to your words, then you can also be responsible for the words that you speak. "Grow a thicker skin" is advice you take up for yourself if you want, not something you use to shut someone down.

It's naive to think that everyone should be these perfect emotional bulwarks, immune to offense or being upset. That kind of ideal takes work; it doesn't happen in a magical instant.

[Hoihe]

I think a simple rule of thumb on this is if you are asked by another player to stop, then do so.

+1

But what I really don't think helps in any way are suggestions like "just grow a pair"

+1

It's easy to tell people to grow a pair, grow a thicker skin, or otherwise say that everyone is responsible for their own reactions. Actually, to a large extent I agree that people are generally responsible for how they respond to upsetting things.

But I often get the feeling that the people who tell others to grow a thicker skin are simply excusing their own inconsiderate behavior. In my view, it's a two-way street. If you want someone else to be responsible for how they react to your words, then you can also be responsible for the words that you speak. "Grow a thicker skin" is advice you take up for yourself if you want, not something you use to shut someone down.

It's naive to think that everyone should be these perfect emotional bulwarks, immune to offense or being upset. That kind of ideal takes work; it doesn't happen in a magical instant.

I've also found that people often told to grow a thicker skin have thicker skin than those telling them. However, even the greatest wall will crumble if constantly assaulted by an army of idiots with chiseling away at it. Now, take a very thick wall that's chiseled away 24/7 vs a thinner wall that's in pristine condition, maybe a few chip marks here and there. Take a sledgehammer to both. Probably the wall full of holes and weakened structure will take more damage, unless the other wall is much, much thinner.

And it's possible to have a thick enough skin to make oneself dead to most impulses. That's always a fun result, too.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It's best not to assume someone's sensitivities, but being respectful will go a long way from the onset and should trickle down into how one interacts with others.

That's not asking for much.

[NegInfinity]

This reminds me of one time when a certain Red Wizard tried to hit on my tiefling blackguard of all people.

I had started to write a reply to the now taken-down post regarding some explicit harassment RP that took place. As someone whose female PC has been sexually harassed to the point of discomfort twice, and observed another PC be harassed a couple of times,

A character in your signature is a paladin. So, smite evil.

After which point it'll be a PvP rules issue. There will be a 24 hour cooldown period, and if they break it, it'll be an offense.

The stuff in the taken down is something that should be dealt with a DM.

However, important thing to keep in mind is that your character is not you, and due to the events taking in medieval realm, you have an option to beat the snot out of the offender or kill them.

you should ask OOCly first.

Please check pvp rules. Pvp on bgtscc does not require OOC permission.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170
There are numerous actions that auto-consent pvp, and harassment is probably one of them.

A character who continuously provokes, slanders, bullies, or offends another character is considered to have consented to PvP with that other character. The offended character is not required to give an RP out before engaging in PvP with the aggressor, as long as the attack occurs during the offending.

Basically...

Determine if this is a CvC (character vs character) issue. If it is, act accordingly. This is a game. You can kill people in it. You can also kidnap, torture, execute them or sacrifice to evil gods.

In this game, there are also high-adrenaline situations, with this being one of them. Another example of high-adrenaline situation is having your character roflstomped by someone who is 15 levels tougher. The fun part is that you can get revenge on roflstomper later and kill them with power of friendship and 5 level 30 paladin buddies. Or blackguard buddies.

However, if this is not a CvC issue but the PLAYER behind the character has beef with you, then this should be directed to DM team to be dealt with.

What I really wouldn't want to happen is BG turning into a sandbox where people can't experience anything bad and are only allowed to build sand castles.

Thsi is a medieval world, there are very grim parts of it, and there are people being eaten alive by illithid larvae somewhere few miles below BG.

Meaning if someone goes too far while hitting on your character you can just murder them.

[Fury_US]

How about... No?

As has been stated before, there is absolutely ZERO reason why explicit, continuous harassment needs to be a part of this game. It is not, at that point, a "character concept", nor is it valid RP- it's using RP as thin excuse to be a trollish douche. It's already a major violation of currently standing server rules, and waving it off with comments like "Just pvp them" or "Just walk away" is belitting to the individual who has to endure said behavior- just like saying "Well if they promise not to do it anymore, they won't get banned."

That's a pile of shit, and it's a real, real good way to have those who have had to put up with that crap just walk away from the server- and with good reason.

[RedLancer]

Some things.

The balance of your response doesn't actually address the issues that have been going on in game, and neither does it provide reliably actionable solutions. A violent IC response to an action that is causing OOC trepidation is in no way a remedy.

What I really wouldn't want to happen is BG turning into a sandbox where people can't experience anything bad and are only allowed to build sand castles.

We already govern certain villainous behaviors. For example, rape, the abuse of children, and the role play of torture are not permitted. It's possible to be the most vile blackguard without gutting kids or violating the captured. It's well within permissible means to be a misogynistic jerk without employing sexual harassment.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

What I really wouldn't want to happen is BG turning into a sandbox where people can't experience anything bad and are only allowed to build sand castles.

+1 here, but I guess it has already turned into such. I am a fan of conflict RP myself, and most bright moments here for me were IC conflicts (most of them ended with my defeats, but still lots of fun). But lately when I am trying to act as my evil/neutral characters should or start a player driven event, many people start immediately switching to OOC and yelling that they "Don't want to play with me and will ignore me" without even giving a try to RP. I had several talks with staff about the issue, their position is simple — if someone doesn't want to play with you then go away and do something else. RP out culture is dead, all you need to do is transition to another area or start OOC whining — and here is your safe space, and the one who tried to RP with you is a griefer and bad RP'er. I would remind once again, that conflict RP ≠ griefing or harassment (although it seems that according to the current staff policy it is).

[Lunchbox]

I don't feel that employing IC violence would address the underlying issue for a few reasons.

A character in your signature is a paladin. So, smite evil.
... you have an option to beat the snot out of the offender or kill them.

If I (or someone else) plays a violent character, sure, this may be an appropriate IC response to IC behavior. But what about the person who plays a commoner, or is level 3?

The solution to harassment shouldn't simply be "attain level 30 so you can beat the crap out of anyone who OOCly bothers you".

You can kill people in it. You can also kidnap, torture, execute them or sacrifice to evil gods.

What I really wouldn't want to happen is BG turning into a sandbox where people can't experience anything bad and are only allowed to build sand castles.

I have nothing against negative experiences. I love conflict that is part of character development and creates an interesting story. My character has them all the time - and in fact, was captured and tortured last night. The difference is, I participated willingly and nothing graphic was described.

Like Fury and RedLancer mention above, egregious deeds committed against your PC should be done so with your active participation. Not in spite of your wishing they didn't happen.

[casadechrisso]

I just don't want some arsewipe coming out of nowhere and in front of a laughing crowd tell my character how they will eat her pu**y and offering all kinds of rapist stuff, telling me how hard their d*ck is, or stalk me around the server making countless flirt attempts that may be within the server rules one by one, but is harassment when it happens all the time. Is that really too much to ask for, does that need a political discussion?
Sorry, I will probably censor myself in a half hour, but I really don't get it.

Edit: Self-censored the political stuff.

[NegInfinity]

my character how they will eat her pu**y and offering all kinds of rapist stuff, telling

That was a breach of server rules and likely to be already handled by DM team.
There isn't really anything to discuss about that incident.

The server has always been (trying) to be PG-13, so in case something like this happens, screenshot, contact DM team, and cehck your client extender chatlogs for the username.

Occasional nutcases and weirdos happen. They should be reported. Then they'll be dealt with.

[Ghost]

I think this thread has about run its course, people. The play nice and be excellent to one another.

Moderators can come lock this now.

[casadechrisso]

- deleted, DMs should have the last word -