UD/Surface Crossing Rules

[mrm3ntalist]

The UD is great atm. No drow with AFK tags have seen in Doron Amar.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

UD char can visit Doron Amar, but with AFK on and without IC communications.

How can anyone take this Server seriously, if such would be the case?

YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST NOT ROLE-PLAY. The above simply breaks Server Rule #1, and with that Rule undermined, all other Rules become subject to interpretation. Furthermore, punishment applied under any other Rule "being broken" becomes a farce, since in the end, all Staff decisions come out of "interpretation" as well, thus coming full circle to establish that all Server Rules are up for interpretation, once again.



Ao help us.

Unfortunately, judging from my last conversations with the DM team RP is really optional here.

[Sun Wukong]

@Steve

I think it's very eyeroll worthy but that's the price to pay for OOC fairness. Practically the ones who put the AFK tag simply put their gear needs above their RP for a small time window... Let their consciences judge them

[Steve]

You guys actually think Players on BGTSCC have a conscience?!?

[adobongmanok]

Correct me if I'm wrong since English is indeed my 2nd language,

That is the case for me as well. So my assistance here comes with the risk of blind leading the blind.

This quote pretty much explains your perception of UD players who speak in "flavor" language and nicely insulting them in a soft way.

The thing to understand "flavor" is that people have different preferences. For example some consider the durian fruit to be a genuine delicacy, while for others its stench alone is akin to rubbing rotten onions against their eyeballs.

The previous quote explains my perception of UD characters who speak in "flavor" language.

Oh, and I forgot to add how some of the other possibilities is that the drow character that speaks in "flavor" is not from Sshamath. Or perhaps such a character is a former escaped slave who mixes in goblin words or something like that. Or perhaps it is only something that is pretending to be a dark elf, and so on, and so on...

There are so many valid reasons why a character does not speak properly, but as I said earlier, bringing this topic up in game usually confuses at best, or offends at worst. Thus it saves time to just ignore or avoid the characters that speak in "flavor".

Now, there are characters that speak with "flavor" on the surfrace as well. For example the dwarves can be rather difficult to communicate with - but at least their "flavor" is mostly based on actual English words.

Putting the clear hateful perspective aside, I understand your point of having that RP is hard to define as it is since many people have different RP perspective, thus my question begs an answer to "how much" can we bend this RP rule that is in place? Because it seems to me, it's practically hard to enforce if there's no clear understanding what is acceptable RP or not.

How can anyone take this Server seriously, if such would be the case?

YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST NOT ROLE-PLAY. The above simply breaks Server Rule #1, and with that Rule undermined, all other Rules become subject to interpretation. Furthermore, punishment applied under any other Rule "being broken" becomes a farce, since in the end, all Staff decisions come out of "interpretation" as well, thus coming full circle to establish that all Server Rules are up for interpretation, once again.



Ao help us.

I agree with above. People lately have been...I'll stop there.

Once again, how do you actually know of a character's in character reason to be anywhere? Either the player tells you in character, or out of character. Now, factor in that people have different tastes when it comes to "flavor" and this means that not all RP is perceived to be of equal quality.

That's exactly the main point of my intentions in bringing this topic up. The complete definition of acceptable RP to cross the borderline between UD/Surface.

Here's a definition of what I think is an acceptable RP:
Let's say a character RP as a deaf, and not interact with another character then clearly some sort of an OOC indication needs to be in place.

I would interact on 3rd person by typing:

*The deaf individual does not seem to notice anything*

It's clear that the character is deaf while giving the other player a clear indication in IC. I would say that's an acceptable RP, but of course he would need to have a reason to be on the other side. So let's do it again:

*The deaf individual does not seem to notice anything. He seems to be carrying a bag of shipments that seems to be from the surface and eyes in the merchants nearby*

Now, is that an acceptable RP and reason to be in Sshamath even though my character is "disabled"?


TL;DR
Is it up to players to define what is an acceptable RP to be on the other side or does the DM Team have a clear definition of what is acceptable RP in order to cross the line?

[V'rass]

Obviously its not a shopping mall. Those dont exist in FR anyway. And im not saying everyone on the surface should just flood in like its nothing. The city is open to surfacers but few go down and for good reason. The trip is dangerous and the population almost completely hostile. Very few people from the surface go down there, most of the few times ive gone down there i have not seen a single non-UD person. Unfortunately now most times i go down there i dont see anyone surface or UD... so i dont go much anymore as there is no point without people to rp with.

[mrm3ntalist]

I think the DM team is handling the ud/surface interactions rather well. There will always be those that they dont like how this is done or take advantage of the rules to justify ooc behavior. Going through the past UD/Surface threads, it is not difficult to figure this out.

[Sun Wukong]

TL;DR
Is it up to players to define what is an acceptable RP to be on the other side or does the DM Team have a clear definition of what is acceptable RP in order to cross the line?

Go read the server rules here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36831

And the PvP rules here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

What you ask has already been defined in those two threads.

[Invoker]

I'm fairly sure that per lore Sshamath is rarely visited by surfacers if at all. A trade city, yes. But to underdarkers. Other drow cities and Svirfneblin and such. Surfacers should be soiling their drawers while down there. I don't care if you're epic or not. There are drow below that will eat you for breakfast, literally. To act as if there is not is metagaming.

That is correct. Even very powerful, seasoned adventurers with sponsors in the city, and thus reasonable expectations to...stay alive, know better than carelessly walking around, lest they disappear. Forever.

You mean the *** level range drow players that attempt to PvP any * or ** level range underdark players - only to log out and vanish the moment their most recent victim logs back in with a character in the *** or 'unknown' level range?

I think this is more anecdotal than objectively accurate, but it doesn't make it any less regrettable. I, and all the UD players RPing down there with dedication, am very sorry to hear that has been your experience.

Anecdotally speaking, I have been PvPed by surfacers even 6/7+ levels above, but being a Drow with a proper build obviously helped to win those encounters too, perhaps even giving a false impression. I have only PvPed twice while outleveling the counterpart, and both of the opponents were underdarkers. The first one misjudged her chances to win. With the other, we had an "RP encounter", so descriptive, RPed PvP without mechanics.

Since I hit lvl 30, whenever I find Surfacers in the UD, they RP fear and actually run away the moment my character materializes before their eyes and speaks.

Seems all good.

[Sun Wukong]

That is correct. Even very powerful, seasoned adventurers with sponsors in the city, and thus reasonable expectations to...stay alive, know better than carelessly walking around, lest they disappear. Forever.

So what actually sets aside carelessly walking around from carefully walking around?

Do you demand that people people have to scream in horror every time something moves on their screen? Do you have to be constantly clicking back and forth? Do you have to maintain stealth mode to remain unseen, what if you are of low level or without stealth investment? Are you forbidden from running? Are you expected to be running? Do I have to be constantly emoting? Do I have to adjust my character bio in some manner to please the underdark players? What about when some underdark player ignores a surface character's full disguise? Exactly how much do you expect me to bend and twist my own character to match your whims and expectations?

That is a lot of questions isn't it? Is someone willing to start answering them? Even if you will - are your answers something that all underdark players are going to agree with you?

So as for the:

haha funny drow, buzz off I am shopping, no time for your mumble

Well, if that is what a surface character is going to say, it is what a surface character is going to say. It is up to you to have your character deal with it appropriately within the confines of the current server rules. I can imagine a great many ways of dealing with such individual. Why is it so hard for some of you?

think this is more anecdotal than objectively accurate, but it doesn't make it any less regrettable. I, and all the UD players RPing down there with dedication, am very sorry to hear that has been your experience.

The server has its ups and downs for everyone. But even with the tongue in cheek nature of my previous statement, I will have to disagree with your assesment of it being more anecdotal than objectively accurate. I may have an unfortunately long history of said anecdotal experience, but I am hardly the only one here who has experienced such.

That said though, there is not much you can do to stop it from taking place, other than leveling character up to the *** level range or hiding your level range.

Since I hit lvl 30, whenever I find Surfacers in the UD, they RP fear and actually run away the moment my character materializes before their eyes and speaks.

*Goes to underdark with my spotter cleric.*
*Watches Invoker's character awkwardly crawl at snail pace.*
*Drops a silly Implosion or Word of Faith.*
*Gets banned for breaking the PvP rules.*

[Invoker]

So what actually sets aside carelessly walking around from carefully walking around?

If you go to Mexico City, or Sao Paulo, and you act like some surfacers do in Sshamath, you disappear even there. And there are no Drow.

Nobody answers your questions because we assume they are playfully provocative, ironic.

I have no intention to limit creativity by stating a serie of guidelines to follow to the letter for visiting the UD. However, it's a sensible idea to have a sponsor, get escorted around by them, make sure the guards see you with them, and then leave those guards' sight radius as little as possible without them.

Lest you die.

The server has its ups and downs for everyone. But even with the tongue in cheek nature of my previous statement, I will have to disagree with your assesment of it being more anecdotal than objectively accurate. I may have an unfortunately long history of said anecdotal experience, but I am hardly the only one here who has experienced such.

That said though, there is not much you can do to stop it from taking place, other than leveling character up to the *** level range or hiding your level range.

I hope I am not just very lucky, and that the phenomenon is less extensive than you perceive it to be, despite the unfortunate history you mentioned.

As for what we can do to stop it...we can educate, and RP well. We can tolerate. We can give the example. It's a problem of RP culture.

*Goes to underdark with his spotter cleric.*
*Finds out Invoker's character is no sneak, whatsoever.*
*His spells have zero effect because of his huge saves and SR*
*Gets banned for breaking the PvP rules.*

Fixed it for you. Not to mention how stupid you'd look, in the Screenshots

[Sun Wukong]

I have no intention to limit creativity by stating a serie of guidelines to follow to the letter for visiting the UD. However, it's a sensible idea to have a sponsor, get escorted around by them, make sure the guards see you with them, and then leave those guards' sight radius as little as possible without them.

Lest you die.

Yet it is what has been requested in this thread. A guideline written in stone to dictate allowed in game behaviour to the letter.

But as for the whole sponsor thing, I firmly disagree with its necessity. While it does provide some underdark character a chance to roleplay a tourist guide, but on the other hand adventurers are not commoners. We have characters that have wiped out literal nests of ancient red dragons, cleaved through hordes of at least one layer of Baator, and peformed other such feats... Thus the entire might of a drow city is not exactly even a speed bumb.

*Goes to underdark with his other spotter cleric.*
*Finds out Invoker's character is unable to flee properly.*
*And that the SR is rather easily reduced with you know what, and there is not enough HP to endure quickened Harm spam.*
*Gets banned for breaking the PvP rules.*

Fixed it for you. Not to mention how stupid you'd look, in the Screenshots

And I fixed it for you.

[c2k]

If you go to Mexico City, or Sao Paulo, and you act like some surfacers do in Sshamath, you disappear even there. And there are no Drow.

If anyone acted like quite a few player characters in the populated areas here do in any human settlement on this planet, they would get run through or killed by the government there. The "murder hobo" is strong.

[Invoker]

But as for the whole sponsor thing, I firmly disagree with its necessity. While it does provide some underdark character a chance to roleplay a tourist guide, but on the other hand adventurers are not commoners. We have characters that have wiped out literal nests of ancient red dragons, cleaved through hordes of at least one layer of Baator, and peformed other such feats... Thus the entire might of a drow city is not exactly even a speed bumb.

Wrong. The Drow of Sshamath are far, far more powerful than the Red Dragons and inhabitants of Baator the PCs can find. Just like those same PCs do not roflstomp the Dukes and the Fist, based on the same criteria.

*Goes to underdark with his other spotter cleric.*
*Finds out Invoker's character is unable to flee properly.*
*And that the SR is rather easily reduced with you know what, and there is not enough HP to endure quickened Harm spam.*
*Gets banned for breaking the PvP rules.*

Fixed it for you. Not to mention how stupid you'd look, in the Screenshots

And I fixed it for you.

Since you have been the one with PvP problems, frustrations, being roflstomped by higher lvls and even banned, while I have a grand total of zero deaths on the character and several won pvps...I don't think that edit is exactly justified .

But for the same reasons, I will give you a break .

[Mercator]

In server lore Sshamath has approximately 3500 free human / surface elf residents living there permanently. By no means is it beyond the realm of possibility for powerful surface PCs to visit, and visit safely, if they have appropriate magic. Trade has been an RP reason to be allowed to journey down to Sshamath for a long time.

However, swaggering about like one owns the place and abusing Drow residents should really be considered godmoding the NPCs who would love - love - to teach such visitors the error of their ways (Eg provoking visitors to getting on the wrong side of the wards!). And should be dealt with accordingly, screenshots to the DM team.