Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

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wurdpass
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Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by wurdpass »

Maybe there's a game mechanics issue but it seems to me that you could "or" link it to the Frenzy feat.
Dwarven battleragers, or kuldjargh ("axe idiots"), are legendary berserker warriors who can enter a battle frenzy through ritualistic singing. They are believed to have been touched by the dwarven gods of battle, who taught them that if they die in battle, they will return to Faerûn stronger than before as a just reward. Therefore, they have no fear of death. They are given to drinking, rowdy and boisterous singing, and drunken dancing. Battleragers command grudging, if fearful, respect within dwarven society, where they are known to have coined such philosophically complex dwarven maxims like "head first" and "if it moves, kill it." Most live short, glorious lives.

While enraged, a battlerager's face becomes distorted and twisted. His teeth grind together as spittle flies from his mouth and dribbles down his beard. His eyes enlarge, bulge, and become bloodshot. Charging into battle, he bellows forth his clan or holy war song, throwing his hammers and axes all the way, before cleaving his foes with his mighty dwarven waraxe. In short, he becomes almost unstoppable. Battleragers are often covered from head to toe in body art, from tattoos to brands to ritual scars. They prefer to wear spiked armor, and some of them ride specially trained boars into battle.

Battleragers are usually single classed barbarians before taking the prestige class, though multiclass barbarian/fighters are also common. Barbarians/rangers and barbarian/clerics (known as "vindicators") are not uncommon as well. Other multiclass combinations are almost unheard of.

The battlerager fills a particular niche in dwarf society and culture. He is a fearless and impulsive warrior, able to enter into an insane rampage. Battleragers are ruthlessly used by dwarf generals for their shock power against attacking armies. NPC battleragers often come from a familial clan made up predominantly of battleragers. These clans often form guilds or halls within dwarven society, though these "guilds" are often more akin to a family or fraternal order. Regardless, battlerager guilds are often located on the fringes of dwarven society, kept out of view and away from easily influenced dwarven children, who often hear of the kuldjarghs' fearlessness but rarely their folly. While heroic battle is honored ifi dwarven society and battleragers often excel in this, more often than not they also epitomize lives wasted in stupid rage, something most dwarves realize they cannot afford in a world filled with orcs and goblins.
Based on this, only the third paragraph suggests that it would have to be Barbarians. However the idea that there could be Cleric/Barbarians or Ranger/Barbarians implies that a hero might develop the traits of a battlerager later (starting out as a Ranger lvl1 and taking Barbarian levels later).

So I think that if a fighter, or ranger specialized into being a Frenzied Berzerker, learning to Frenzy and falling in love with it
For the frenzied berserker, the insanity of battle is like an addictive drug -- they must constantly seek out more conflict to feed their craving for battle
They would be able to pursue being Dwarven Battleragers as well.


Mechanically I think opening up the Battlerager class to Fighters, Ranger or other martial class / Frenzied Berserker doesn't seem like it would be too over powered.

Because Dwarves favor Fighter class you can currently be a Fighter/Barbarian/Berserker/Battlerager. But a Ranger/Berserker/Battlerager or a medium BAB class (maybe a Bard) has to take a XP penalty from Barbarian levels.

You lose the benefit of the Battlerager's free Great Cleave feat since you had to take it to qualify for Frenzied Berserker. However you do benefit from the Extend Rage, which you really want as a Berserker since you don't get a Constitution bonus during Frenzy.

Another benefit is freeing up that fourth class slot as well. I can imagine this being used for Fist of the Forest, Dervish or Weapon Master. But I don't think that this would create any balance issues compared to Fighter/Berserker/Weapon Master, which will probably be stronger than a Fighter/Berserker/Battlerager/Weapon Master.

I believe 12 Fighter / 3 Fist / 5 Battlerager / 10 Frenzied Berserker would be strong and fun to play, but not unbalanced compared to what you can get in the game. The same goes for a Dervish, Favored Powerattack Ranger or Bard 21/Frenzied/Battlerager.

Since Berserkers must be non-lawful, this does *not* open up crossclass to Dwarven Defender, which will likely remain the more consistently strong option for a Dwarven melee hero.

Thanks for reading.
chad878262
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by chad878262 »

There is nothing OP about Frenzied Berserker/Dwarven Battlerager combo. In most cases Barbarian Rage is simply better. This really boils down to if the PRC can have class requirements of "Rage or Frenzy" instead of just Rage.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

In PnP Frenzied Berserker actually requires one level of Barbarian for the rage ability. The PRC doesn't replace it, and Rage + Frenzy stacking does create rather high strength score.

In the past that was one of the reason the change was not done. The other one was that back then the primary non-magical melee build was 'Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Something Else' and I suppose Fighter 12/Frenzied Berserker 6/Weapon Master 7/Battlerager 5 was not notably different to it all.

Things have changed since then, barbarians are no longer 'dead weight' and perhaps there could be something to reconsider.

If it is decided against, it will likely be due to Frenzied Weapon Master Dire Charge or something.
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Valefort
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by Valefort »

There's no technical problem for this change and balance wise it's not much of an issue either however like Sun Wukong pointed it's a pnp requirement. I feel it's more a question for DMs.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Valefort wrote:There's no technical problem for this change and balance wise it's not much of an issue either however like Sun Wukong pointed it's a pnp requirement. I feel it's more a question for DMs.
Have tried out a Dire Charging Frenzied Weapon Master? Dire Charge lets you have many attacks at the end of your charge. It will play a role in PvP and against caster mobs.

I am not for or against here, just making sure it is fully considered.

Which brings us to the next point. If Frenzied Berserker opens up Battlerager, why not Bear Warrior? Why not have the Bear Warrior PRC replace the Frenzy with Bear Form or something? Perhaps a Frenzied Berserker Bear Warrior should have its own 'Frenzied Bear Form.' Possibly one that has Northlander Hewing effect on it, deathward, DR, regeneration that with level overcomes the HP loss.

*Casts conjure Akroma.*
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chad878262
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by chad878262 »

Bear warrior is a stronger PRC and would be stronger by having extra levels to play with to get fighter feats and such. Best form increases stats more than frenzy does as well.
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wurdpass
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by wurdpass »

I intentionally didn't include Bear Warrior because I know it's a divisive topic on this board.

As far as Dire Charge Weapon Master goes.. not convinced you get more more from 12 (or 8) Fighter / 5 Battlerager / 7 Weapon Master / 6 (or 10) FB vs. 13F/7WM/10FB. I guess you're referencing the big crit potential from all the extra charge attacks..

Having the three of Greater Frenzy, Epic Weapon Specialization and Supreme Power attack seems like it's stronger than having one or two of those plus Dire Charge, some Nat AB and Extend Rage.

I further feel that the 'wasted' Great Cleave you get from Battlerager if you go this route (Fighter > FB > Battlerager) kind of ensures that it won't be too powerbuilt - if using Battlerager as a stepping stone to FB for a Dwarven Barbarian is balanced I think Fighter > FB > Battlerager shouldn't be far off.
Slade
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by Slade »

wurdpass wrote:I intentionally didn't include Bear Warrior because I know it's a divisive topic on this board.
Is there some conclave of OP Bear Warriors that I haven't been invited to join? I've only two other BWs on the server, ever.
Sun Wukong
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

chad878262 wrote:Bear warrior is a stronger PRC and would be stronger by having extra levels to play with to get fighter feats and such. Best form increases stats more than frenzy does as well.
Barbarian 8/Fighter 12/Bear Warrior 10. This one gets base three uses of rage that can be upgraded to 5 with an amulet or something.

Fighter 12/Frenzied Berserker 5/Bear Warrior 10/Something Else 3. This one gets base three uses of Frenzy that can be upgraded to 5 with an amulet or something.

I can see your point, in which case I actually suggest a 'Frenzied Bear Form' that uses Frenzy. It is possible to create a distinct form that is more balanced:
  • Frenzied Black Bear: +8 strength, +2 natural armor, +2 Will saves, and the frenzied bear warrior takes 3 points of damage per round. All claw and bite attacks have +2 enchantment, with an extra attack per round, and deal maximised damage per hit. 15 base AC.
  • Frenzied Brown Bear: +10 strength, +5 natural armor, +4 Will saves, and the frenzied bear warrior takes 2 points of damage per round. All claw and bite attacks have +3 enchantment, with an extra attack per round, and deal maximised damage per hit. 20 base AC.
  • Frenzied Dire Bear: +12 strength, +7 natural armor, +8 Will saves, and the frenzied bear warrior takes 2 points of damage per round.. All claw and bite attacks have +4 enchantment, with an extra attack per round, and deal maximised damage per hit. 25 base AC.
While the stats for the rage Bear form remain as follows:
  • Black Bear: +8 strength, +4 constitution, +2 dexterity, +2 natural armor, +2 Will saves, and Fast Regen +2 . All claw and bite attacks have +2 enchantment. 20 base AC.
  • Brown Bear: +10 strength, +8 constitution, +2 dexterity, +5 natural armor, +2 Will saves and Fast Regen +3. All claw and bite attacks have +3 enchantment. 25 base AC.
  • Dire Bear: +12 strength, +8 constitution, +2 dexterity, +7 natural armor, +2 Will saves and Fast Regen +4. All claw and bite attacks have +4 enchantment. 30 base AC.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: Open Dwarven Battlerager up to Frenzied Berzerker

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

wurdpass wrote:As far as Dire Charge Weapon Master goes.. not convinced you get more more from 12 (or 8) Fighter / 5 Battlerager / 7 Weapon Master / 6 (or 10) FB vs. 13F/7WM/10FB. I guess you're referencing the big crit potential from all the extra charge attacks..

Having the three of Greater Frenzy, Epic Weapon Specialization and Supreme Power attack seems like it's stronger than having one or two of those plus Dire Charge, some Nat AB and Extend Rage.
The Furious Charger background trait gives you +4 AB while charging. Powerful Charge means +1d8 damage per hit that lands. Dire Charge means that you are no longer limited to just one attack.

Now, it has been some while, but a long time ago I had a Barbarian 21/Fighter 4/Battlerager 5 on this server. I suppose I often go on about how I challenged characters in fullplate into fair fist-fights, but that does not mean I did not have some 'fights' with some of the Camp Fire arcanists as well. These arcanists would pick a fight at some reasonable distance and often started their spell spam with a Mord. Especially if my dwarf had drank any random potion that had left some kind of a visual spell effect.

Now, the arcanist wasted a spell on a Mord. (It makes sense to cast most of the time, but not always.) This meant that my Barbarian could freely activate the instant rage, and then Dire Charge. The first flurry of attacks would land, followed by a knockdown on the middle flurry. The next round often started with the arcanist on the ground. The Battlerager of mine did about 30~ damage with unarmed attacks, I am sure you can imagine what he did with an Epic Dwarven Battleaxe.

This brings us the Dire Charging Frenzied Weapon Master. Dire Charge allows you to close the distance. Dire Charge allows you to get some damage in from the first attack flurry with your highest BAB attacks. This damage can be a critical hit, and disrupt spellcasting even if it is not.

Normally Frenzied Weapon Masters cannot really fit in Dire Charge, but the Battlerager PRC basically grants it for free.

Thus, if it is decided that Dire Charge is not a concern, it is not a concern. But I insist that there is something to consider first.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
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