DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

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Steve
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DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Steve » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:34 am

I'll just leave this here as a Suggestion for consideration. I would hope it's rather apparent why not.

Thank you.
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:12 am

I thought there is already such ruling in place Oo
But I agree with it completely.
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by aaron22 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:20 pm

I could not find my like button.. so....

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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by ZestyDragon » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:29 pm

So long as they are not answering their own requests or running event's for their own guild, It's a non issue. A guild is just a group of players playing together.

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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Glowfire » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:32 pm

If it's the same as it used to be, ADMs can't but DMs can.

It can be very hard to find players who want to lead a faction (I should know, been trying to hand over leadership of Bregan D'aerthe for a year now). There's strict eyes on that any DMs don't favour their own guild (even when they're not in any leadership position but are only members). I think it's unnecessary to cripple guilds to this degree.

The best DMs are usually the community's most active players. There's even been a reluctance when recruiting DMs because it tends to deal a really heavy blow to the guilds they are part of - as they're often leaders and ADMs can't be that.
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Steve
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Steve » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:53 pm

Leading a Guild requires a great amount of time and devotion.

Being a DM requires a great amount of time and devotion.

Well...successfully being one, at least.

So a DM-Guild Leader either: a) "works" double time; b) gives half-time devotion simultaneously. Kinda like a recipe for burn out, if you ask me.

Which in the end leads to: no DM and no guild leader. :think:

Anyway...there are kinda important other issues...like why lawyers can't be judges simultaneously.
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by electric mayhem » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Steve wrote: Anyway...there are kinda important other issues...like why lawyers can't be judges simultaneously.
Judge Dredd isn't exactly a pillar of good moral society.

There is also quiet murmurings among those whom would like to either a) get involved in guilds, or b) become a leader, and get turned off by the fact of the topic of this thread.


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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by kleomenes » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:46 pm

Steve wrote:...like why lawyers can't be judges simultaneously.
They are, often, at the lower levels.

Lawyers and judges also socalise and are part of linked professional organisations.

What a judge can't do is judge a case he has a direct interest in. He recuses himself. The analogy for DMing is not DMing relating to your own interests and those of those you have a close connection with. While I was on the DM team that was considered bad ethics unless cleared by HDM

I realise when you were on the team the rules weren't as tight, which is why you might be concerned as you seem to be.
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by chambordini » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:09 am

kleomenes wrote:I realise when you were on the team the rules weren't as tight, which is why you might be concerned as you seem to be.
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Steve
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Steve » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:08 am

A judge does not practice Law as a lawyer. Where is Charraj when you need him?!? :?
(5) Practice of Law. A judge should not practice law and should not serve as a family member’s lawyer in any forum. A judge may, however, act pro se and may, without compensation, give legal advice to and draft or review documents for a member of the judge’s family.
http://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeshi ... tes-judges

Anyway...in regard to my time on the DM Team, it was actually stricter than afterwards, which many might not be aware of (as it seems to be). I come from the DM School of Charraj and TheVoid, which was much more concerned with Ethics and Appearances and Impartiality and Separation (Charraj-side) as well as No Tolerance for Bad Ideas (TheVoid-side).

Like, for example: before and during my time as ADM/DM/HDM, Dungeons Masters were explicitly NOT allowed to be Guild/Faction leaders...and it was even frowned upon if they were very active within a Guild/Faction that was participating in the Server Wide Campaigns (trust me...I know from personal experience!).

Plus, I never said nor even implied that DMs cannot socialize or link themselves to professional organizations...and actually, THAT is MORE of what I'd propose: DMs getting involved with Guilds/Factions by assisting with Storybuilding and playing NPCs with the utmost devotion, so that Players have a richer experience on BGTSCC.

Recusing oneself only goes so far, considering that DMs can "see into" Private Guild Forums, monitor communications, and essentially RP their PCs with a boatload of OOC knowledge gained form the other side of the veil.

And while I'd say that 90% of the ADMs/DMs find a way to make a separation of what they know OOC and what their PC knows IC, that a DM can be commenting, Ruling, directing the Server OOC as well as making decisions on in-character issues while simultaneously directing, ruling, commenting withing their Guild/Faction as a LEADER of that Guild/Faction, just...well, you literally have no meter in which to measure the extent in which lines cross.

Maybe it is best to ask the question: why WOULD you want to be both a DM and a Guild Leader at the same time? What is the interest there? How do you successfully represent yourself as Guild Leader under certain demands while parallel, you have a responsibility to be an active and supportive DM—is that really possible to an extent without conflict?

From my perspective, here are the positives and negatives of my suggestion:

Cons:
- DMs think they'll have less fun (?)
- Guild/Faction dies off because lack of a Leader
- Players identify new DMship because their PC "mysteriously" drops out of Leadership or existence.

Pros:
- More focus on DMing (RL time opens up)
- Opens up avenue for other Players to attain Guild Leadership (thus grooming for future DMs! 8-) )
- Clear separation between Staff goals and Player/PC goals.
- Greater community knowledge of fair practice by DM/Staff.

Let me end by stating that I don't think the Admins and/or HDMs are doing a bad job of monitoring and acting when impropriety occurs on the DM Staff. But it is also clear by example that DMs do often enough utilize their role as a DM in improper ways, or, their Player-side activities gain because of the DMship knowledge/position.

This is why, ultimately, the best way to DM is to NOT be active as a Player, and be allowed to turn on/turn off being a DM when it suits, just like a PnP Dungeon Master and D&D Gaming Group can exchange roles during its lifetime. It also would then provide a possibility for a non-anonymous DMing structure, like how Flasmix is Flasmix both as Player and DM. When DMing, PCs are dormant and when Playing, a DM is "cut off" from the DM-side of the veil.

One could think of it as taking on the mantle of DM to run a campaign, then take a break. That would them leave HDMs—and boy do we have enough of them these days! /zing—to continue to care-take the DM Staff overall.

And then no one would have to wonder why such-and-so DM is on Staff, but always on their PC instead. Right? Clear cut.
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Slunko » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:44 am

Slunko throws another log onto the argument pyre;

"I wholly agree with said statement."


He then takes a bowl of popcorn and enjoys the show.

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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by kleomenes » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:51 am

Steve wrote:A judge does not practice Law as a lawyer. Where is Charraj when you need him?!? :?
(5) Practice of Law. A judge should not practice law and should not serve as a family member’s lawyer in any forum. A judge may, however, act pro se and may, without compensation, give legal advice to and draft or review documents for a member of the judge’s family.
http://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeshi ... tes-judges
Steve, I'm a lawyer myself, in England and Wales part-time judges continue to practice law. I've instructed a few such Barristers myself because they were good advocates.
Steve wrote:Anyway...in regard to my time on the DM Team, it was actually stricter than afterwards, which many might not be aware of (as it seems to be). I come from the DM School of Charraj and TheVoid, which was much more concerned with Ethics and Appearances and Impartiality and Separation (Charraj-side) as well as No Tolerance for Bad Ideas (TheVoid-side).
I'm just wondering how this squares with some of the bad practices that occurred back just before I joined the DM team (Neither Charraj or TheVoid were on the team at the time, so the following does not reflect on them, although I recall you were), such as DMs dual boxing and being on as PC and DM in the same event, and senior DMs instructing junior DMs to run plots so as to favour their PC's guild or, indeed, their own PC. All thankfully things of the past.

I'd much prefer rules that were enforced than unnecessarily tighter rules that are ignored.
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Mel Darenda, Board Member of the Golden Wheel - Amnian Coin
Daug'aonar, Bregan D'aerthe Master of Hounds - Loyal
Cynric, Chief of the Greyfox - Seeking the Salt Shaman
Ameris Santraeger, Cleric of Ilmater, Harper, & Peacock - New Father!

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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Grendunor » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:57 am

Here here!

*eats popcorn in a south London acent*
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by DM Arrakeen » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:50 am

I'd like to remind everyone to remain civil and avoid inflammatory comments. If there is a need to rehash the past, please take that aspect of the conversation to the PMs.

As things stand now, the Administration is against changing the stance and policy on full DMs being able to have their PCs in guild leadership positions.
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Re: DMs shouldn't lead Guilds/Factions

Unread post by Steve » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:12 pm

@kleomenes: considering your background and your country, as you explain it, it makes sense that you would disagree with me. That's fine with me, to disagree in opinion over the matter.

As per past issues with DM Teams, mine or yours or the future ones, I'm surprised that you would take a stance to not make clearer and cleaner separations between DMs and their PCs (and the extent to which bad practice can occur).

But I guess this is why we have Admins like Maecius and Endelyon!

@Arrakeen: I never expected the current HDMs to take up this change...but maybe future HDMs or Admins will have a different opinion. At least I hope you 4 considered it objectively.
mrm3ntalist wrote:You will have to nerf everything

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|> Henryk UrdeSword of Justice
|> Simsae OrcslayerSong of Thunder - Stonesinger of Kraak Helzak
|> Preceptor Phasorin ZauPurification through Fire

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