Counter Song, Improved, Reactive, and Epic

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Thin Ice
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Counter Song, Improved, Reactive, and Epic

Unread post by Thin Ice »

Counter Song (remains the same):
This song puts a buff on the targeted ally that lasts for 10 rounds or until discharaged. Any hostile magic that would affect the countersong's target has to make a Spell Resistance check of 10 + levels of Bard the singer possesses. Whether the spell is blocked or not, the countersong is discharged.

A bard cannot cast this on himself, only on allies.

Improved Counter Song:
Requirements: Counter Song
When counterspelling, Counter Song may be used as if it were a memorized Greater Dispel spell. Counterspelling will still attempt to use memorized spells from the bards spell book before using a counter song.

(( Basically detaches the relation to Counter Song ))

Reactive Counter Song:
Requirements: Bard 21, Improved Counter Song, Base Charisma 16
Activate as a mode (as in, normal counterspelling). You automatically attempt to counterspell 1 spell cast against you per round. You cannot use the regular counterspell at the same time. Normal limits apply (no spellcasting or running for it to take effect)

(( Basically, the Reactive Counterspelling feat ))

Epic Counter Song:
Requirements: Bard 21, Reactive Counter Song, Spellcraft 30, Base Charisma 18
When using Reactive Counter Song, you can dispel any number of spells per round, instead of the usual limit of 1

(( Basically, the Epic Counterspelling feat ))

EDIT: Update to Anti-Magic Melody:
- Anti-Magic Melody: At 5th level, a dissonant chord can use their Perform skill to negate magic. This works as Mordenkainen's Disjunctions with a cap equal to their bard level (Dissonant Chord and Stormsinger prestige classes count toward this and AMM has a +25 max cap). This potent ability is quite exhausting to use as each time it is activated it uses four of their bardic music uses for the day.

The Dissonant Chord may use Anti-Magic Melody for Improved Counter Song to counter spells at the same rate of 4 songs per spell countered.

Two main goals here:
1) To reward bard players who have devoted their studies to countering magic with their song.
2) Improved Counter Song seems very odd -- on one hand it's extremely powerful (op even) and on the other it's utterly useless. This aims to rework it.

User Story:
As a Level 21 Bard, Level 5 Dissonant Chord, I am not able to defend myself adequately for my level against some of the most basic spells. These spells include nearly all offensive magic cast from level 5 spell book (caster level 9) of arcane (wizard, sorcerer) / divine (druid, cleric) spell caster.

EDIT: Since this suggestion is heavily weighted toward Dissonant Chord, I also propose:

Code: Select all

 Dissonant Chord

The dissonant chord understands better than most how the natural harmonics of the universe pervade all things. Music might be its most pleasing form, but magical energy has harmonics of its own. The dissonant chord has learned to make their music resonate into a counter-harmony that disrupts the effects of magic.

Requirements:

Feats: Curse Song, Lingering Song.
Skills: Spellcraft 5, Perform 8.

Class Features:

- Hit Die: d6
- Base Attack Bonus: Medium.
- High Saves: Ref, Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: None.
- Armor Proficiencies: None.
- Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier.
- Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft Alchemy, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Lore: Arcana, Lore: Architecture and Engineering, Lore: Dungeoneering, Lore: Geography, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nature, Lore: Nobility and Royalty, Lore: Religion, Lore: The Planes, Move Silently, Perform, Spellcraft, and Tumble.

Class Abilities:

Level 1: Bardic Music, Improved Counter Song, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2: --
Level 3: Break Concentration, Bonus Feat (Reactive Counter Song)
Level 4: Skill Focus: Perform
Level 5: Anti-Magic Melody, Bonus Feat (Epic Counter Song)

- Spellcasting Progression: At each level, a Dissonant Chord gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if they had also gained a Bard level.

- Bardic Music: A Dissonant Chord's class level stacks with any levels of bard they have for purposes of determining the number of times per day they may use bardic music and the effects of all bardic music. Dissonant Chord levels do not stack with bard levels for determining which songs a bard has access to.

- Improved Counter Song: When counterspelling, Counter Song may be used as if it were a memorized Greater Dispel spell. Counterspelling will still attempt to use memorized spells from the bards spell book before using a counter song. 

- Break Concentration: At 3rd level, a Dissonant Chord becomes expert at distracting spellcasters, their discordant ways interfering with spellcasting. Any enemies within 30' of the Dissonant Chord suffer a penalty to concentration equal to the dissonant chord's class level plus Charisma modifier.

- Bonus Feat (Reactive Counter Song):  At 3th level, the Dissonant Chord may receive Reactive Counter Song as a free feat provided they meet the minimum requirements.

Anti-Magic Melody: At 5th level, a Dissonant Chord can use their Perform skill to negate magic. This works as Mordenkainen's Disjunctions with a cap equal to their bard level (Dissonant Chord and Stormsinger prestige classes count toward this and AMM has a +25 max cap). This potent ability is quite exhausting to use as each time it is activated it uses four of their bardic music uses for the day.

The Dissonant Chord may use Anti-Magic Melody for Improved Counter Song to counter spells at the same rate of 4 songs per spell counterd.

- Bonus Feat (Epic Counter Song): At 5th level, the Dissonant Chord may receive Epic Counter Song as a free feat provided they meet the minimum requirements.
Last edited by Thin Ice on Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:26 am, edited 10 times in total.
chad878262
Posts: 9332
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Greater, and Epic

Unread post by chad878262 »

The problem is these would be wasted feats. Bards only get level 6 spell casting and Greater Dispel can't counter spell levels 7 or higher. Thus, Epic Reactive Counter Song is useless in Epics, when it would be important. Being able to grant an ally spell resistance is a nice benefit, if quite situational. Being able to Reactively Counter 30+ level 6 or lower spells is ok I guess, but nothing to get overly excited about... Yeah, you can counter unlimited IGMS, but Bigby 7/9 still wins because you don't have the spell levels to counter.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
Thin Ice
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Greater, and Epic

Unread post by Thin Ice »

Good point Chad. Without directing the implementation, I was thinking they could be integrated into feats received by the Dissonant Chord, possibly in a Bonus Feat selection?

Greater Dispel was chosen because that's the highest dispel available in the bard spell book, now the Dissonant Chord does get MD access at level 5 (using 4 songs)... possibly this could be integrated at the same song usage rate?

As far as Bigby, the bard has a very high amount of skills to drop into -- I believe it was Evade that allowed a character to roll against Bigby (I'd have to fire up the client or search). At any rate, if the above suggestion of using an Anti-Magic Melody as a dispel doesn't seem over powered, it could work?

Thanks for your reply!
chad878262
Posts: 9332
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Greater, and Epic

Unread post by chad878262 »

I would not want to give Bards Mords... That is the primary draw of Dissonant Chord and the Bard gives up 2 bonus feats (26, 29) and 1 BAB (21 BAB instead of 22 if B25/DC5 compared to B30). If Bard 30 can get Mords effect what's the point of the DC PRC?
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
Thin Ice
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Greater, and Epic

Unread post by Thin Ice »

I agree with that Chad, Anti-Magic Melody should stay with the Dissonant Chord level 5.

Possibly update to Anti-Magic Melody:

- Anti-Magic Melody: At 5th level, a dissonant chord can use her Perform skill to negate magic. This works as Mordenkainen's Disjunctions with a cap equal to her bard level (Dissonant Chord and Stormsinger prestige classes count toward this and AMM has a +25 max cap). This potent ability is quite exhausting to use as each time it is activated it uses four of her bardic music uses for the day.

The Dissonant Chord may use Anti-Magic Melody for Improved Counter Song to counter spells at the same rate of 4 songs per spell countered.
chad878262
Posts: 9332
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Reactive, and Epic

Unread post by chad878262 »

Maybe we can think about how much this empowers bards? Bards are already quite strong, either as STR Bards, EDM Bards, or even DEX Bards can be pretty strong if built correctly.

I think any new abilities/changes to Bards should be strongly tied to the Charisma modifier to give more options for CHA focused Bards. They aren't great casters thanks to max level 6 spells and the few abilities they do better than STR bards require a party (which is fine, but partying up is not always an option).

What would you do with these abilities that could make the feats worthwhile for specifically CHA bards? Perhaps number of spells you can counter per round is somehow tied to CHA modifier (like CHA modifier/2?) or make the dispel feature capped by 1/2 (Bard+DC+SS levels) + CHA modifier ( so +25 for a level 30 character with all levels either in Bard, Dissonant Chord and/or Storm Singer).


Side note to your personal issue/concerns. You may want to post in the build forums because if you have a Bard/Dissonant Chord and are struggling you may have an issue with your build. Bards are one of the strongest PvE characters on the server. One way most people enhance a Bard is to take practiced caster and Rogue or some other class to get evasion for a dip. Another thing you can try is to grab some + Saves gear and cast Superior Resistance. A cloak sold in the epic shop for ~100K can grant you SR32 which is useful even in low-epic areas. Finally, Bards have UMD as a class skill, so carrying a wand of least mantle and/or scrolls of spell resistance can help in many situations. Using wands of Deathward, Dimension Door, Silence and Protection from Evil (or scrolls of lesser mind blank) also protect you from many of the mob casters on the server. Yes, all these things can be dispelled, but so what? click the link in my signature for wand crafters guide to see how cheap wands are pure use. With how easy it is to quickly build up gold you definitely make more looting than you'll spend on wands.

In short, Bards already possess the means to protect themselves from the spells you are getting hit with. Any changes that get made will likely add flavor only, not power. Thus, I humbly suggest you seek help either IC or OOC with regard to what you can do with the tools at hand, rather than try to get a new ability/enhanced ability for a Tier 1 Class.

***Of course this is my opinion and in no way represents a staff decision. Just trying to help. 0:)
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
Thin Ice
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Reactive, and Epic

Unread post by Thin Ice »

Typically, with just about any suggestion, there is a viability threshold; it's not worth doing because no one would use it or it's not worth doing because everyone would abuse it. I like how you've been devils advocate on both sides of my suggestion! :D

Taking your suggestion to bring it down a peg (to complement making it more useful) for already capable STR/DEX/EDM based bards and lean it more in the favor of CHA based bards, what do you think about a minimum requirement for the Epic Counter Song feat? Minimum requirement of 18 base charisma?

I see where you're going with the spells per day based on an equation (simple) modified by charisma, however, adding complexity notoriously results in high amounts of complications (that's not a redundant statement).

Touch on your side note: I appreciate the suggestions!
chad878262
Posts: 9332
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Counter Song, Improved, Reactive, and Epic

Unread post by chad878262 »

Thin Ice wrote:Typically, with just about any suggestion, there is a viability threshold; it's not worth doing because no one would use it or it's not worth doing because everyone would abuse it. I like how you've been devils advocate on both sides of my suggestion!
Was trying to be supportive, but also realistic as to what we would likely consider from a QC standpoint. It is a diametrically opposed philosophy, sure, but it's no less accurate.
Thin Ice wrote:Taking your suggestion to bring it down a peg (to complement making it more useful) for already capable STR/DEX/EDM based bards and lean it more in the favor of CHA based bards, what do you think about a minimum requirement for the Epic Counter Song feat? Minimum requirement of 18 base charisma?
My first post stated it was useless because it only offered them Greater Dispel, which is ok to dispel mobs and bosses with less than 30 CL, but is useless as a Counterspell for level 7-9 spells. This was a fair point at the time. My second post was indicating Dissonant Chords get Anti-Magic Melody and that is the primary reason for taking this PRC. Giving something similar to Bards removes any one might have to take the hit of losing 2 epic feats and 1 BAB in order to take DC. Your update didn't really make any change that makes me thing Dissonant Chord would be worthwhile, pure Bard is just plain better. The only thing DC can do that Bard can't do is Anti-Magic Melody. Therefore, we should not give Bards the ability to use Mords. If they have that, DC may as well be removed and Bards are just being given a flat power up.

18 Base Charisma is not a deterrent. EDM Bards already need 21 STR and 21 CHA and they are one of the more popular builds.
Thin Ice wrote:I see where you're going with the spells per day based on an equation (simple) modified by charisma, however, adding complexity notoriously results in high amounts of complications (that's not a redundant statement).
While I understand your concerns, our developers have used similar equations with multiple other DCs and abilities with great success, which is why I suggested to do it this way. For example, Blinding Strike calculates DC as: 10 + (sneak dice) + (1/5 Character Level) + (1/5 Rogue Levels). Thus, A level 30 Character with 15d6 sneak dice and 16 rogue levels would have 10 + (15) + (6) + (3) = 34. Thus making the number of spells you can counter CHA Modifier / 2 would result in 18 Charisma allowing only 2 spells countered, while a player that went for Epic Inspiration would counter far more. Making the dispel roll capped by 1/2 Bard and Bard PRC levels plus Charisma modifier has similar results. You'd need 30 CHA to hit 25 which is what the Dissonant Chord caps at. That is as it should be IMO as it only really helps CHA bards, not others.

Realize, even with all of this, it's highly unlikely any changes are made to Bards. We tend to make changes to classes that not many people are playing to make them more interesting and drive diversity of character builds on the module. Bards are probably one of the top 2 or 3 most popular classes already, there is no need to encourage more players to make them.

Again, I realize I first offered support and then may have seemed to be going the other direction so apologies for any confusion that caused. My primary purpose throughout has simply been to offer suggestions around providing flavor, not power OR providing power only to the weakest type of build for bards (by the way CHA bards are far from weak, just talking perception here). Secondarily, my purpose has been to hopefully help you see what Bards can already do and why such an ability as this would detract from what is already there for Dissonant Chords while providing more power to a class that already sits right near the very top of the power heap. Hopefully this and the previous posts were useful in some ways.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
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